Hargrove out 8 games

[pbmax]

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/05/08/vitt-denies-that-he-told-hargrove-to-lie/

I am not so sure about that. His statement helps explain why the NFL suspended the coaches, and heard their appeals, first. It helps blunt the 'we were only following orders' defense. And while he acknowledged the existence of the price, he has denied his hit on Favre was motivated by the program (and I don't think he drew a flag).

So Hargrove seems to have admitted only that there was a price on Favre's head, and I don't think anyone doubts that. However, his former coach, Vitt, said the system was no more than the pay for performance system like the Packers used in the game versus Purple Jesus (my comparison, not his). So did Hargrove admit to a team intention to injure Favre using illegal means or just to hit him legal and hard and make it difficult to continue?

Even Williams video could be seen that way.

The larger question is still unaswered; was it all talk and motivation, or did anyone actually get paid to injure? The NFL still hasn't provided definitive proof about payments.

Either system violates the CBA and salary cap rules as the Packers system did (and so did the Best Buy gift cards). But only bounties for injuries, or intent to play outside the rules makes this different than any other team in the League. And while everyone agrees that would be something contemptible and rare, the League has not provided compelling material that that is the case.

[Smeefers]

One thing I would like to clear up. The "we were only following orders" line is bullshit. We're not talking about accidentally shredding some TPS reports, we're talking about shredding records prior to an IRS audit and then covering up that you did it. Anyone who participates is guilty, regardless if they were following orders or giving them.

If the NFLPA is going to say he was told to play dumb, but he didn't know what he was playing dumb about, then that would be one of the stupidest defenses I've ever heard. My girlfriends 8 year old kid could poke enough holes to drive a truck through that argument in 30 seconds. That's something a teenager says when he's caught doing something wrong hoping the parents are idiots.

"Johnny, why were you lying about weed being smoked at that party?"

"Well, Tommy said not to say nothing, otherwise he'd get in trouble."

"But you knew it was going on?"

"Uh.. no, I just, was told, to um, not say anything bout nothing. Tommy just said that his parents have been trying to bust him for a while now. I didn't know it was about weed."

"So why'd he ask you to stay quiet if you didn't know?"

"I don't know. He's stupid?"

"So then why did you even bring it up?"

"Because you accused me of Smoking weed! I didn't, I swear!"

"But Tommy did?"

"I don't know!"

Only the most naive of parents would accept that answer. The kid might or might not of smoked pot, but he did show up at home that night with red eyes and smelling of incense. He most definitely did know that weed was being smoked at the party and he lied about it.

Same thing for Hargrove. He may or may not have been trying to injure favre, but he did have a late hit on him when money was on the table to take him out. He definitely knew a bounty system was in place and he lied about it.
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I don't know why we would even be having this discussion if the hits were legal. If these guys are getting suspended for a year because they payed bonus' for legal hits, then the packers are screwed. They've been echanging cash for dropped passes for years. Say good bye to our receiving core. No, the only way suspensions come is due to illegal hits specifically to injure players. You can fight for a ball in a pile, you can't break someone's fingers to get it.

Going back to the tape of Vitt (I believe he was the one in the tape), I had no problem with all the "take the head off the snake" talk and crap like that. It's when He talks about taking a dude out and paying for it that is illegal and the source of all the problems.

[pbmax]

disclosure: At this point, I barely remember who hit who in the Saints/Favre game. I know one Hargrove hit has been questioned (was it the one after a handoff?) but that the worst (the hit low from behind and late by a Saint on Favre which wrecked his ankle) was someone else on the line. And I think that was when Hargrove celebrated. If I am wrong, please say so.

I am not buying the play dumb line either. But denying the existence of the system does not tell you the nature of the system. The only question is: Did any money change hands? Did Hargrove collect or donate any money? Otherwise there is less here than Best Buy giftcards and $100 to keep AP under 100 yards. Encouraging players to hurt someone legally has been done in pro football for a long time.

And there are questionable hits all the time, including Al Harris hurting Peterson's knee in the Pack/Vikings game that occur outside any bounty system. Harris wasn't flagged, he wasn't a recipient of any money (but he DID organize a play for performance in that game) and it clearly wasn't an effort to injure Peterson (Al went low like he always did to avoid hitting the opponent square). Should Harris be retroactively fined 8 game checks for his involvement?

Saying any questionable hit during the three years is evidence of the bounty system is ludicrous and ignores the basic gameplay. Urlacher nearly took off Rodgers head in 2010 (or 09?) with a forearm and not only is it not evidence of a bounty, it wasn't even flagged.

There needs to be evidence of payment or the case is weak. Waving cash and rubbing your fingertips together without anyone actually being paid is noise. A lot of coaches encourage their players to cut the head off the snake or "dot" the player. The NFL is not trying to stop rhetoric, its statement indicates its targeting a play for performance (bounty) scheme as its against the CBA and conduct detrimental to the game.

Favre is the only standout injury example so far. Warner thought he got worse treatment the week before from the Packers. And labeling the effort a bounty system doesn't change the nature of the behavior. If there were payments then its a salary cap violation. If there was encouragement of illegal hits, then let's see the evidence that money was paid for knockouts and cart offs. Hargrove celebrating and one late hit don't seem enough to prove that 3 years after the fact.

For the lie, I can't see him skating. Though eight games seems silly compared to what the League wishes you to believe occurred.

[pbmax]

A parsing of Hargrove's statement that finds it falls short of what the NFL says it contains. Of course, its still patently unclear what he was lying about, since clearly Williams and Vitt had reason to be concerned. but was it talk or was it actually payments?

http://espn.go.com/blog/nfcnorth/post/_/id/41748/hargrove-declaration-wheres-the-beef

[Smeefers]

What was this statment in response to? Why did he put what he had to say down on paper? At the very least he was being accused of lying about knowledge of the bounty system. In order to come clean, he wrote this out in order to mitigate any serious damage which, might I add, he pretty much did. It's not like the guy has a squeeky clean record. His suspension length could be more due to his continuation from past problems. Pacman Jones' suspensions got bigger, not less with the more crap he did.

Let's go to the other end of the spectrum. He was being accused of participating and lying about his knowledge of the bounty system and he knew they had dirt on him. In order to come clean, he wrote this out in order to mitigate some of the damage he knew was coming his way and to point the finger in another direction. That is why he focused so much on what his coach did and said next to nothing about what he knew or what he did. He didn't want to completely self implicate in case they didn't have anything on him, but he wanted to help out in order to lessen his sentance, which, might I add, that he did. He could of kept denying the shit out of this and then who knows, maybe he'd be sitting next to Vilma with a year long suspension.

I'll use a Seifert quote and turn it around. He said: "but I think any reasonably intelligent person can see what Williams was up to, at least based on the account Hargrove gave in his declaration." I say: I think any resonably intelligent person can see what Hargrove was up to, at least based ont he account Hargrove gave in response to the NFL's investegation.

In the end, I think SC said it best, They wouldn't of nailed these guys to the wall unless the NFL knew they wouldn't slide.

[pbmax]

No doubt he wrote this to mitigate the effects of having lied. Though, if I were a player agent, I would read the part about Williams just happening to be drawing up the depth chart with Hargrove starting when they met, only to backtrack later, to all my clients as a reminder to take everything with a grain of salt.

But the NFL has not produced evidence of payment. So what he was lying about, absent other evidence, was a motivational tactic and loud, boasting bravado.

For this to be a Salary Cap issue and different from all the other mini-paydays players have organized, Williams (or Vilma) needs to have paid someone. Or they need some other corroborating evidence that the coaches and players were trying to induce illegal hits. Williams has reason to hide even a pedestrian Best Buy gift card scheme because the League considers all forms of it a violation of the Cap.

They might have it. But Goodell expected to be and currently is the appeal process right now. If he should find himself in another venue, they may be required to produce the evidence. So far the best known evidence is Williams asking for shots to the head of the Niners Williams. But of course, that did not happen during the game.

I don't think for a minute that Gregg Williams, Joe Vitt, Jim Schwartz, Jeff Fisher (and Buddy Ryan) weren't trying to get the QB, or someone injured. But other than being stupidly public about it, I am not yet convinced they have materially done anything different than every other DC.

[woodbuck27]

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d82944897/article/roger-goodell-says-public-will-see-proof-of-bounties

Roger Goodell says public will see proof of bounties.

By Gregg Rosenthal ... Around The League editor

• Published: May 22, 2012 at 05:29 p.m.
• Updated: May 22, 2012 at 06:22 p.m.

" NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell indicated Tuesday at the Spring League Meeting that the NFL plans to release proof to the public that bounties were paid by New Orleans Saints players.

"Yes, I do," Goodell said when he was asked if he expected the proof to be revealed. Eventually.

Goodell pointed out that the league released facts in March and is going through the appeals process with the NFL Players Association. He indicated that the league won't release any more information publicly until the appeals and grievance processes are finished. Goodell also said that the NFLPA "expressly told the players not to cooperate in the bounty investigation.

"I invited them in and they decided not to do that," Goodell said." Fr. LINK

PLEASE Click on LINK for video etc.

[pbmax]

Goodell met the media at the owner's meeting and sounded like there could be movement on the players suspensions. his contention is that the NFLPA asked the players not to cooperate (an odd claim since the NFLPA forwarded Hargrove's declaration) with the investigation.

Presumably, he is now in possession of new information which might lead to adjustments. But the cloud of litigation makes this a hard read.

[Bossman641]

Word on the street is that Vilma's 16 game suspension could be reduced to 8 games if he drops his defamation suit against Goodell.

Having both Neal and Hargrove come back after 4 games would be a big boost to the DL.

[pbmax]

NFL is denying its offered a settlement.

[KYPack]

Goodell is totally fucking this whole deal up.

It's dragging on WAY beyond what should have been settled.

I think Hargrove and Fujita are sitting pretty.

[Iron Mike]

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/8238319/sources-jonathan-vilma-suspension-reduced-withdraws-civil-suit

[Guiness]

It's certainly possible they didn't bother asking Sharper to go hit someone hard.

[pbmax]

Missed this entirely. http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com...delicate-spot/

Goodell's target for disciplining players has gotten quite a bit smaller. Any actions involving money, donating or receiving, have been determined by the NFL/NFLPA in-house arbitration panel to be strictly the purview of the Salary Cap special master Stephen Burbank. Goodell must confine himself to behavior not involving money.

Which means Hargrove is still in trouble and the other three are probably in better shape, though I would be stunned if he doesn't still suspend them again.

[mraynrand]

Goodell must confine himself to behavior not involving money.

Does that mean Pacman Jones would be off the hook(er)?