PACKERS' ... Secret Superstar: Brad Jones

[pbmax]

If the guys don't have it by now then perhaps there is too much to get. I'd rather them run a simple scheme quickly than a scheme riddled with bullshit only after years of practice.

If that is truly the case, then the fault is both Thompson and McCarthy keeping undisciplined players. Youth is one thing, youth that can't learn is another. You better be Raji good to keep that up.

[3irty1]

If that is truly the case, then the fault is both Thompson and McCarthy keeping undisciplined players. Youth is one thing, youth that can't learn is another. You better be Raji good to keep that up.

That's assuming the scheme is of reasonable complexity such that reasonably disciplined players could learn it. Do you not think it'd be possible to make the volume of information large enough that nobody could learn it?

[pbmax]

JH, I am not sure about abandoning zone in the latter half of the season. I have no numbers, but that play we highlighted in the Game Thread versus the Vikes during the last regular season game was a zone coverage with Shields playing a deep 1/3 or bail corner. Hayward was underneath and one of the safeties in the deep middle.

To the general point about the Packers and zone, Ponder completed the pass to the sideline for a critical 1st down. In Shields defense, the receiver and QB after the game said they noticed the short zone (Hayward) after passing the initial guy through his zone, would float short in his unoccupied territory rather than get depth.

So the Vikings completed a Cover 2 beater route (basically an out by the slot guy or man in motion) against a Cover 3 zone. Which is more or less unforgivable.

[pbmax]

That's assuming the scheme is of reasonable complexity such that reasonably disciplined players could learn it. Do you not think it'd be possible to make the volume of information large enough that nobody could learn it?

Sure, its possible. But Eli Manning has said a couple of times that there was nothing hidden or hard to read about the Packers defense. Packer opponents don't seem to think they are seeing anything exotic.

So its possibly too much for the packer defenders but its not the League's most complex defense either.

[3irty1]

Sure, its possible. But Eli Manning has said a couple of times that there was nothing hidden or hard to read about the Packers defense. Packer opponents don't seem to think they are seeing anything exotic.

So its possibly too much for the packer defenders but its not the League's most complex defense either.

Was this after the 38-10 game we played without Matthews or Woodson?

The eyeball test for me shows the Capers D has a ton of different looks to it both on the frontend and the backend. The defense is heavily substituted, has lots of different coverage looks and lots of designed false steps to conceal the coverage for the first split second. I mean its a zone blitz scheme... by definition it exists in a high volume of permutations. Our high interception totals would seem to indicate opponents aren't finding the defense a cake walk.

[Joemailman]

Was this after the 38-10 game we played without Matthews or Woodson?

The eyeball test for me shows the Capers D has a ton of different looks to it both on the frontend and the backend. The defense is heavily substituted, has lots of different coverage looks and lots of designed false steps to conceal the coverage for the first split second. I mean its a zone blitz scheme... by definition it exists in a high volume of permutations. Our high interception totals would seem to indicate opponents aren't finding the defense a cake walk.

Except last year the INT total was 18 after averaging nearly 30 2009-2011. Does the absence of Woodson at nickel make the defense less complex for the opposition to figure out? Was it just a one year decline?

[3irty1]

Except last year the INT total was 18 after averaging nearly 30 2009-2011. Does the absence of Woodson at nickel make the defense less complex for the opposition to figure out? Was it just a one year decline?

18 is still a lot. 7 teams had more.

[pbmax]

Was this after the 38-10 game we played without Matthews or Woodson?

The eyeball test for me shows the Capers D has a ton of different looks to it both on the frontend and the backend. The defense is heavily substituted, has lots of different coverage looks and lots of designed false steps to conceal the coverage for the first split second. I mean its a zone blitz scheme... by definition it exists in a high volume of permutations. Our high interception totals would seem to indicate opponents aren't finding the defense a cake walk.

Don't remember, it could have been. We have argued about this before and while I am resistant to your conclusion, I realize I have nothing hugely substantive to back that up except Manning and memories of results.

I cannot speak to coverages as I need to watch the TV clips repeatedly just to find everyone and only rarely does someone with the All22 break down the coverage. So I can't comment on false steps. But I have never seen a breakdown of a Packer coverage as disguised. The most complex concepts I have seen covered are pattern recognition (pattern matching and that was mainly Woodson) and the split field (man one side, zone the other).

And more importantly, it probably doesn't matter how we view it compared to the League. If the players are confused, it doesn't matter how it ranks in the League. So from that perspective, I agree with you.

But INTs don't tell me that a QB has been fooled. A lot of Packer INTs come from free lancing. With no Wood last season there was less unconventional coverage, but the INT total dropped as well. What is the old Bill Russell line? Blocked shots are most often the results of a defensive breakdown? INTs for the Packers are often a player coming off one coverage to jump another.

That being said, the problem overall in the backfield has gotten better. The pass D last year was far superior to 2011. My concern is that coaching is not helping to close these weak spots as fast as they appear. I can identify Collins as a personnel hole that never got filled in 2011 and marginally better in 2012. Other than Walden and maybe an ILB, there are fewer obvious culprits around the rest of the defense.

[3irty1]

Just throwing it out there but I wonder how much the new CBA has to do with this. The CBA now reduces practice time and puts more of the responsibility for preparation on the players to watch film on their own time etc. Less practice time would seem to favor schemes like the Bears with simple base formats which provide a strong foundation on which to add whatever permutations. When the shit hits the fan the Bears always have that basic defense they can resort to that they've all practiced a million times and seen everything from.

Less practice time would also favor shiny new offensive wrinkles as they depend on extra preparation which would now fall on individuals.

[woodbuck27]

Upshaw is an OLB for them, the guy you're missing is Ray Lewis (240). For an average of 252.5. Replacing 250lb Walden with 265lb Perry should pretty much make the difference in size negligible. Don't think it'll be necessary to actually play Neal at OLB. Seems like that's just a wrinkle or learning exercise. The difference between our linebacking corps has much more to do with the fact that they had 2 guys who could rush the passer and we had 1. Interesting that we're talking about the Ravens because we were actually the better defense last year during the regular season in pretty much every statistical category including points, rushing yards, and passing yards. Suggs and Lewis both missed half the season but made it back for the playoffs. Shows what a difference health can make!

For most teams the NT is a situational player who really just plays in the base D which is typically slightly less than half of snaps. Pickett could be that type of NT. Raji has the size to be adequate on the nose and the movement skills to be adequate as an interior pass rusher so I don't mind them using him all over although I do agree that he plays far too many snaps. He should be playing 75% of the snaps he's been playing tops.

Again where we disagree is that I don't think Capers is just a complete moron who is hell bent on forcing players into a scheme they're no good at, I think he's just highlighting the wrong players: Woodson. Losing Woodson as the crown jewel of his defense forces Capers to change his spots IMO. Casey Hayward is a fantastic player but he's no OLB like Woodson could be which means your 2-4 nickel that kind of looks like a 4-3 when you want it to is dead. We now have the personnel to play a 3-4 that is as flexible as the 2-4 has been for us. If we wanted we could have a 3-4 sack machine front that looked like: Perry - Neal - Daniels - Jones - Matthews.

What we need (again) is for some Packerrats to be used as consultants and how the Packers should diagram a defense.

When I read this conversation and I mean what Wist43, JH and 'YOU' 3irty1 present here. It's pretty clear what direction the Packers have to go in in terms of 'D'.

Should all the blame go on DC Dom Capers, MM and Green Bay Packer coaching?

It's also very clear why the Green bay Packers are going with everything 'wish and prayer' or 'all in Johnny Jolly'. It's realistically just 'a good luck', with that proposition; and I hope I'm surprized.

If the defense is supposed to be a 3-4 then you need four solid 'BIG Men', to work on point on some rotational basis. Too often it's 'only' >>> the really only two and talented 'BIG MEN' that the Packers have in terms of necessary skill/talent.

An aging and 'tired easier now', Ryan Pickett; and a much younger and talented but with 'not the stamina required'... as he's being over used / under utilized... B. J Raji. Maybe the talent of Rookie prospect Datone Jones will take some heat off Pickett and Raji; but there's the undercurrent fact that real soon we lose one or both of these two BIG MEN. There's also the fact that Datone Jones is a Rookie in terms of progress and the 2013 season final results.

All off season I expected TT to bring in a solid Big Man in FA. Nope ! He just couldn't get that done. What he did do was the equivalent to me of 'shadow boxing', in this past draft.

That fact is why I was disappointed that TT didn't draft a Big man higher in this past draft or use his Rd. 3 pick. To at least address the impending issues I see with Pickett and Raji more assertively/aggressively.

Where is that Big Man that TT might have brought in? That BIG strong man!?? Isn't he a Rookie prospect with a team noted for it's 'D' or the Baltimore Ravens !? What if Brandon Williams or Sylvester Williams that TT passed on in Rd. 1 ... are solid to exceptional NFL players at DT !?

Even if Raji is retained and Jolly doesn't work out and Pickett is gone. how will this past draft and picking Datone Jones and passing in Rd. 3 and DT Brandon Williams look on the Green Bay Packers going forward?

Watch this guy mature as an NFL DT:

http://ca.sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nfl-shutdown-corner/ravens-third-round-pick-brandon-williams-goes-portable-135958683.html

If I'm correct why wasn't he in the Packers colors 'the Green and Gold'. Him being overlooked is a clear oversight; in terms of the outstanding prospect he was. A clear oversight as the DT he would with the proper coaching have become as a Green bay Packer. TT's first three picks this draft could have easily been DE Datone Jones...RB Eddie Lacy and then in Rd. 3 >>> DT Brandon Williams...outstanding then TT. On top of that he could have done 'all that' without trading with the San Fran 49ers. An absolute senseless move and moreso doing that in Rd. 2 and Rd. 3.

I was originally pissed off for a lot more than that that I later sorted out. That stuff is still on Ted Thompson. That's now 'just' a wait and see and to be further upset over it besides the facts >>>useless energy.

Back to the issue and our DL:

These are some of my concerns and our DL issues. If your a bit broken up or beaten down as our defensive front sure looked to be to me last season; and certainly that late and into the playoff's.

If the cupboard is bare to getting there!? Don't you get in the proper supplies to stay healthy? I sure try to do that. Nothing else makes any sense.

PACKERS!

[run pMc]

The difference between our linebacking corps has much more to do with the fact that they had 2 guys who could rush the passer and we had 1.

The Ravens also had better Safeties IMO, and Ngata is better than anyone GB has on the DL.

At the risk of making it an excuse, there's no doubt injuries played a big role in performance. Expecting your backups to play as good as your starter is asking a lot, especially when you have multiple starters hurt.
Young players -- which the GB roster favors -- make mistakes. Hayward's gaffe against MIN was pretty glaring and costly.

Don't know a thing about Brandon Williams, but TT drafted Josh Boyd, who might contribute and at least will provide competition/depth.
Agree they use Raji wrong at times. I'm less annoyed by the scheme than the execution.

Wouldn't be surprised if they line up in a 3-3 with Neal and then switch to a 2-4 by dropping him back. Manning won't be fooled, but even a moment's hesitation can be costly.

The other team's offense has stars that get paid too, so I try to be realistic. GB's team is built to score more points, not pitch shutouts.

[wist43]

Was this after the 38-10 game we played without Matthews or Woodson?

The eyeball test for me shows the Capers D has a ton of different looks to it both on the frontend and the backend. The defense is heavily substituted, has lots of different coverage looks and lots of designed false steps to conceal the coverage for the first split second. I mean its a zone blitz scheme... by definition it exists in a high volume of permutations. Our high interception totals would seem to indicate opponents aren't finding the defense a cake walk.

Our defense has no identity - and does nothing particularly well. Players misused and out of position, confusion, busted coverages, bad angles, and linebackers with exactly no instincts - adds up to the mess we have.

Did you see Capers comments after the SF game?? He literally said that he tried different things, but nothing worked, so he just kept calling the same crap and hoped the refs would stop it on a TKO.

If saying shit like that doesn't get you fired - nothing will. Capers has been fired 579 times in the NFL. He stays a few years, his teams go to shit, and then he gets fired. I'm very glad we're nearing the end of the Capers rodeo.

He has to go.

[RashanGary]

JH, I am not sure about abandoning zone in the latter half of the season. I have no numbers, but that play we highlighted in the Game Thread versus the Vikes during the last regular season game was a zone coverage with Shields playing a deep 1/3 or bail corner. Hayward was underneath and one of the safeties in the deep middle.

To the general point about the Packers and zone, Ponder completed the pass to the sideline for a critical 1st down. In Shields defense, the receiver and QB after the game said they noticed the short zone (Hayward) after passing the initial guy through his zone, would float short in his unoccupied territory rather than get depth.

So the Vikings completed a Cover 2 beater route (basically an out by the slot guy or man in motion) against a Cover 3 zone. Which is more or less unforgivable.

Ponder beat our zone defense (particularly Shields) enough to beat us. SF, we abandoned it completely by my recollection. Joe Webb, I didn't notice as much because he was so horrible, nobody got beat.

[pbmax]

Way too much "overanalysis": bang:: DOH:

The psycho package is designed to create confusion about who should be blocked. IMO its effective in third and long situations. Recall it being effective when it was first used but that was with Bishop. IMMO effective with the correct package.

The 3-4 allows for more flexibility/gimmicks due to the linebackers/tweener sized players.

Recall early-on when the Packers were more vanilla and how qbs like Roethlesberger and Warner dominated the packer defense. Qbs used to point to where the blitzes were coming from. Then audible a pass play to the vacated area.

The problem with the current scheme is the assignments when the blitzes fail. It is the continual breakdowns that are a big issue not what coach is from what coaching tree.

All this "analysis"*is like over siliconed wahines.

1. Psycho debuted in 2009 with Cullen Jenkins, Hawk and Barnett.

2. Bishop was not in the package until mid-season 2010.

3. Kurt Warner tore apart Capers 3-4, 2-4 and Psycho in 2009 playoffs.

4. Big Ben in 2009 reg season tore Capers D apart as well, though I don't specifically recall if he faced Psycho or not.

[rbaloha1]

Our defense has no identity - and does nothing particularly well. Players misused and out of position, confusion, busted coverages, bad angles, and linebackers with exactly no instincts - adds up to the mess we have.

Did you see Capers comments after the SF game?? He literally said that he tried different things, but nothing worked, so he just kept calling the same crap and hoped the refs would stop it on a TKO.

If saying shit like that doesn't get you fired - nothing will. Capers has been fired 579 times in the NFL. He stays a few years, his teams go to shit, and then he gets fired. I'm very glad we're nearing the end of the Capers rodeo.

He has to go.

Do not forget the buyouts. Capers is like Don Nelson from the NBA.

Super Bowl propaganda smells like rotten cheese and from posters inhaling too much spice.