Bad locker room in Miami?

[pbmax]

Yeah, his alleged racism seems to be the issue and if he was in fact this overt racist I say that he would not have the support of any of his Dolphin teammates or had lasted in the league for 9 years. Do you actually think in today's age of grievance and instant communication that Black athletes would remain silent and tolerate such things without complaint?

The narrative doesn't ring true to me at this point. There's more to the story, particularly on Martin's side.

I am going to confidently say that threatening to kill someone and harm family members will get him into as much trouble as the racism, whether overt in this case or not.

[Guiness]

Yeah, his alleged racism seems to be the issue and if he was in fact this overt racist I say that he would not have the support of any of his Dolphin teammates or had lasted in the league for 9 years. Do you actually think in today's age of grievance and instant communication that Black athletes would remain silent and tolerate such things without complaint?

The narrative doesn't ring true to me at this point. There's more to the story, particularly on Martin's side.

I agree that he is not likely an overt racist, seems like he just uses it as an insult of convenience, and would refer to anyone he butts heads with by a derogatory racial slur.

As far as him 'getting along' with Mike Wallace and other people saying he's a good guy to have around, well, guys like that can be. I spent a year and a half in a Russian town that was a former military base and coal mining region. When I went out, I didn't mind having some pretty dodgy characters with me, and some of their antics were pretty funny. Be friendly with them, buy a couple of rounds, keeps anyone from messing with you. Doesn't make them decent human beings.

[Zool]

Good lord. This thread is revealing. Some people (Kiwon) will make a counter argument no matter the situation.

[pbmax]

I think Incognito's work history also says something about how he wears out his welcome, whether its his racism or simply his lack of self control.

Nebraska (kicked off team after suspensions)
Oregon (2004)
St. Louis Rams (2005–2009)
Buffalo Bills (2009)
Miami Dolphins (2010–present)

Pro Bowl talent and will be off his third pro team. And even Nebraska couldn't protect him and they had Christian Peter.

[NewsBruin]

With the ESPN/Fox/Incognito Sr. leaks coming out daily, we'll see more and more nuances to this story.

It reads to me that:

Incognito is a chippy bastard who'll say anything to get under someone's skin, and probably an intolerably offensive a-hole who should have been taken to the woodshed by his teammates. I don't know if he's racist, because I don't know if he really likes anyone other than his dad.

The Dolphins' o-line is ignorant, passive, complicit, or just lacking any kind of positive leadership. I'll throw in the position coaches and the QB, too, because he should be a leader (and I hate Aggies). Someone in that group should have put the muzzle on Incognito and walked Martin through how to stand up for himself.

Martin has some personal issues he needs to take care of before he laces up his spikes again. I'm not saying he deserved any treatment beyond what the Pack did to their rooks, but an NFL football club is an inherently pressure-filled and anxiety-causing workplace (especially a chronically-losing one), and if he's abusing (as opposed to recreationally using) drugs and attempting suicide, he needs to get the hell out, for his own good.

I agree that the story will swing too much to the "bullying" angle, without taking Martin's other issues into account, out of "don't blame the victim" fear. I don't want him rushed back into the lineup until he's strong enough in himself to not be a suicide risk.

The cool thing about this thread (and this topic, nationally), is that we bring our experiences to the table and can't separate our history from our response. I was bullied in middle and high school, and I brought it on because I thought so Iowly of myself. I kept waiting for someone to stand up for me and tell me I deserved to be respected. Also, I was short, fat, and believed that fighting back was wrong. It didn't help that my parents didn't have an answer, and the only responses I ever got from authority were "Just kick his ass back, and stop bothering me" or "I don't want to get involved, I don't care, stop bothering me."

And since I saw myself as a perpetual victim, I gave myself a pass when I was an asshole to others.

It wasn't until college, when I lost weight, got (and lost) girlfriends, got (and lost) jobs, and had a really infuriating experience with an HR head, that I realized how I had to respect and stand up for myself, rather than wait for Superman to come save me.

It sucks that Martin has to play for the same team that has Incognito, a n00b QB, and a coaching and front office staff that is (or damn well should be) concerned with their jobs on a weekly basis. He deserves a veteran lineman to take him under his wing and teach him how to believe in himself in a lockerroom full of thugs and Neanderthals. But that probably won't happen with the Dolphins, and that's what an imperfect world of fallible humans is like.

I wish I could eradicate bullying in all levels of life, and I think a "no tolerance" policy should be in place in the NFL, with a defined chain of reporting and accountability from top to bottom -- but I can't count on that, and I think all the good intentions will never erase it from society. I think more time should be devoted to teaching people how to make themselves unattractive bullying targets and how to not be passive bystanders when they see it happening to someone else. I'm just concerned if all this comes out to "target the bully" without helping the targets and bystanders see their role in the environment.

[NewsBruin]

Good gravy, that was long. My apologies.

[George Cumby]

Incognito is the face of this, but my question is this: where was the rest of the team? What were the veteran leaders of this team doing? From what little we have, at the very least, they were complicit by their inaction. Were they so stupid that they didn't discern that this was degrading to a toxic level? Were they joining in the fun? Or we're they just glad that they weren't the targets?

[pbmax]

Great post NB.

Agree, Martin has some work to do before he returns and that the Dolphins dropped the ball from stem to stern. Really disappointed in Philbin. Martin's early return would probably not serve him well at all. It might be that the best thing Martin did (as far as we know) is to pull himself from a situation he was not able to handle. He simply may not have been ready to be a pro except in more ideal circumstances.

Also like your take that everyone has some responsibility here. The individual AND the team/coaches/teammates. People cannot simply hope the kid learns to deal with it, they need some assistance. But the situation will be repeated until the individual learns to stand up for themselves and how to get into a better situation.

[Kiwon]

Kiwon.

He was a racist bastard to the max.

Here's a vid of him calling Mike Pouncey "N" from a few weeks ago.

http://www.tmz.com/2013/11/04/richie-incognito-n-word-bar-rage-video/

The fact that he lasted this long is a tribute to his Darwinian ability to survive, but doesn't explain away his behavior.

Yeah, he's an a-hole and a drunk one at that in the video. By the way, did you see anyone take offense at what he said? I didn't. They all talk trash.

If the N-word uttered on a pro football team makes someone racist then you are talking about what, 70% of players guilty of racism? In the course of a day, who uses that language more, Whites or Blacks? You know the answer.

Yeah, the guy's a jerk, but I have a question for you. If the same words that he supposedly said to Martin were said by a Black player, do you think the media's reaction would be different? It would not even be a blip on the radar.

The focus should be on threatening and menacing behavior, veteran to rookie (or young player, in this case). Hazing can be serious (Hello, Florida A&M). It can also be expensive for the rookies as many have attested.

[pbmax]

If the N-word uttered on a pro football team makes someone racist then you are talking about what, 70% of players guilty of racism? In the course of a day, who uses that language more, Whites or Blacks? You know the answer.

You keep going back to this point like you have just discovered cold fusion. Context matters. 90% of that language just washes away because the listener judges the context harmless. When you are threatening someone with physical harm AND using racially charged language, you no longer are going to get the benefit of the doubt.

Yeah, the guy's a jerk, but I have a question for you. If the same words that he supposedly said to Martin were said by a Black player, do you think the media's reaction would be different? It would not even be a blip on the radar..

Maybe not because 70% of the audience wouldn't not identify as closely with the story. However, the bullying angle probably means its a bigger deal than you expect because talk radio and the Internet (including here) are awash in people's own experiences with bullying.

But the biggest story of all would be if Martin had threatened to kill Incognito in retaliation. That would be a story that burned for six months.

[Kiwon]

Good lord. This thread is revealing. Some people (Kiwon) will make a counter argument no matter the situation.

No, Kiwon, can think for himself and not be swayed by the PC template before the facts are in. I still say there is no way a dangerous racist makes it 9 years in a NFL locker room without being exposed.

Bullying, hazing, senior to junior, is a serious problem in Asia, particularly in Confucian societies. In the Korean military, deaths from hazing are not uncommon. Hazing can get out of control if left unchecked. Martin still hasn't shared in detail exactly what happened, when it transpired and his reaction to each incident, has he? In reality, just how serious was the problem? That should be the focus. Was it just trash talk from an idiot or was it something more and who else was involved?

[Noodle]

Agree with PB, great post NB. Terrific insights and honesty -- I wish I had my shite as squared away as you.

Kiwon, brother, do you really not get it? Really? Quick history lesson: White people owned black people in this country for around 250 years, then treated black people as a separate, inferior race for around another 100 years. White people used the N-word to describe their black slaves, and after slavery, continued to used the N word as a derogatory term for black people. I'm a white Southerner of a certain age, and I can say with some confidence that no white person used the N word as a term of affection or brotherhood for a black person. So can you see how use of the N word by a white person to describe a black person might be a little different than when black people use it to refer to themselves?

As to Incognito, yeah, I'm pretty sure he backs baseline negative or positive assumptions about people based on the color of their skin, so yes, he's a racist. But a lot of people are unconsciously racist to some degree (come on, like you don't think all Asians are wicked smart at math?). What makes Incognito truly contemptible is that he's cruel.

[Kiwon]

You keep going back to this point like you have just discovered cold fusion. Context matters. 90% of that language just washes away because the listener judges the context harmless. When you are threatening someone with physical harm AND using racially charged language, you no longer are going to get the benefit of the doubt.



Maybe not because 70% of the audience wouldn't not identify as closely with the story. However, the bullying angle probably means its a bigger deal than you expect because talk radio and the Internet (including here) are awash in people's own experiences with bullying.

But the biggest story of all would be if Martin had threatened to kill Incognito in retaliation. That would be a story that burned for six months.

No, I wouldn't want Richie Incognito as my neighbor, but the low-hanging fruit here is the boilerplate "he bullied because he is a racist."

Really? What other Black teammate did he persecute? Where is the line of his victims over the past nine years? Why isn't he universally hatred in the lockerroom?

In my opinion, if he bullied, he did so because he's a jerk, not because he's a racist, circa 1865 or 1965. In all the years that Richie Incognito has been playing football, which do you think he has more of, White teammates or Black teammates?

[hoosier]

Good lord. This thread is revealing. Some people (Kiwon) will make a counter argument no matter the situation.

No they won't.

[Kiwon]

Agree with PB, great post NB. Terrific insights and honesty -- I wish I had my shite as squared away as you.

Kiwon, brother, do you really not get it? Really? Quick history lesson: White people owned black people in this country for around 250 years, then treated black people as a separate, inferior race for around another 100 years. White people used the N-word to describe their black slaves, and after slavery, continued to used the N word as a derogatory term for black people. I'm a white Southerner of a certain age, and I can say with some confidence that no white person used the N word as a term of affection or brotherhood for a black person. So can you see how use of the N word by a white person to describe a black person might be a little different than when black people use it to refer to themselves?

As to Incognito, yeah, I'm pretty sure he backs baseline negative or positive assumptions about people based on the color of their skin, so yes, he's a racist. But a lot of people are unconsciously racist to some degree (come on, like you don't think all Asians are wicked smart at math?). What makes Incognito truly contemptible is that he's cruel.

You know Keith Richards snorted the ashes of his cremated father, right?

Your history lesson is basically right......but the BS talk on a football team knows no racial boundaries. They're brothers fighting together every week.

But if on a football team, admist all the N-words flying around by Black teammates, a foul-mouthed Richie Incognito says the same things, do you really think they care? N-word is off the table for Whites but people of all races can call each other "bitches" and "M-Fers". Those insults are acceptable by all races?

In 2013, 'Nigger' is not acceptable by Whites or Blacks equally alike. It's not acceptable in popular music either. I think one standard should apply to all.

But, wait, it doesn't, does it? There are double-standards and exceptions apparently allowed. Again, Richie Incognito did not last 9 years in the NFL if he were a dangerous racist.