The Defense - Again, the Defense :(

[Carolina_Packer]

http://www.foxsports.com/nfl/story/p...defense-092914

What do you make of McCarthy's quotes from this article? Obviously, he's not going throw people under the bus in the media. He can't totally deny it and say it's great, but he also can't be too brutally honest either. I hope he's right that what they are seeing is correctable. Why is it so hard to get this thing right? I wonder if they will sell out a bit more to stop the run against MN. Hopefully they will force Ponder to throw on Thursday.

[3irty1]

the wide open middle of the field thing has been a staple of the capers D since he got here

i remember one of the first training camp practices after the super bowl. me and my friends had on the field passes, and i remember watching pass after pass being completed over the middle, and i remember turning to my one friend and saying "for fucks sake, we still haven't fix the biggest problem with the defense"

its been a problem this whole time. winning and lombardi trophies just gloss over obvious flaws in the scheme

Agree that this is the issue but I don't agree that the scheme is to blame. To me it is obviously the talent. Safeties and ILB are most commonly responsible for the middle of the field and since our superbowl I'm doubting there are any other contenders out there who've had less at those positions than us.

Even before the superbowl we had some seriously athletically challenged dudes in Bishop, Hawk + 20lbs, and Peprah but with Woodson perpetually in the slot and Nick Collins taking away the seam, teams had a major deterrent from spamming the middle of the field. With those two gone and the better athletes like Jones and McMillian not working out we were hosed.

The other thing to blame is league trend. The middle of the field is hot right now. I heard a stat somewhere that something like 70% of the passes in the NFL were in the middle of the field last year. So its something every defense is having to deal with but we've been uniquely vulnerable there. I'm optimistic about it just because we've got some new blood in there and our safeties are playing well.

[wist43]

Agree that this is the issue but I don't agree that the scheme is to blame. To me it is obviously the talent. Safeties and ILB are most commonly responsible for the middle of the field and since our superbowl I'm doubting there are any other contenders out there who've had less at those positions than us.

Couldn't disagree more - it's scheme much more than talent.

You can't line up with 4 guys in the box and expect to stop the run - and that should be the end of that portion of the debate.

You can't line up with 6 guys in your "front seven", and expect to consistently stop the run.

You can't always play nickel against 3 wides - especially when the down distance is 3rd or 4th and short. All the OC need do is throw 3 wides out there, and he knows Capers will abandon the middle of the field. Result?? Easy 1st down.

You can't play man 24/7 - especially underneath. It makes it far to easy for OC's to create huge voids underneath and in the middle. Matchup zones have evolved tremendously in the past decade or so... the Packers haven't noticed, but much of the rest of the league manages.

Even before the superbowl we had some seriously athletically challenged dudes in Bishop, Hawk + 20lbs, and Peprah but with Woodson perpetually in the slot and Nick Collins taking away the seam, teams had a major deterrent from spamming the middle of the field. With those two gone and the better athletes like Jones and McMillian not working out we were hosed.

Yes, we lost talent - and there is to be expected a dropoff and transition. But what Capers has done has made everything worse. He has in no way tailored a scheme and gameplans according to the talent TT has given him. TT brought in a lot of good DL talent, and Capers proceeded to park those guys on the bench.

TT did nothing to improve our ILB situation, yet Capers schemed to ensure that those guys were on the field 24/7 - and the focal point of the defense.

Capers turned a difficult situation into a disaster - yes, we have less talent than the SB year, but Capers has made everything worse - much worse.

The other thing to blame is league trend. The middle of the field is hot right now. I heard a stat somewhere that something like 70% of the passes in the NFL were in the middle of the field last year. So its something every defense is having to deal with but we've been uniquely vulnerable there. I'm optimistic about it just because we've got some new blood in there and our safeties are playing well.

Rule changes have opened up the middle a bit more. What with "hitting a defenseless player", and the chuck rule... but that does not account for Green Bay's completely abandoning the middle of the field.

The rules do not say, "... the offensive player must be uncovered, and be allowed to make the catch".

The mess in the secondary seems to be somewhat less of a mess - but it is still a mess. That's coaching.

If a player doesn't know where he is supposed to be?? That's coaching.

As often as not, our defense looks like the keystone cops... some of the mess seems to have been cleaned up - but there is no doubt that the Packers are fielding one of the worst defenses in the league - and 95% of what is wrong can be summed up in one word - dunderdummy.

[Fritz]

http://www.foxsports.com/nfl/story/p...defense-092914

What do you make of McCarthy's quotes from this article? Obviously, he's not going throw people under the bus in the media. He can't totally deny it and say it's great, but he also can't be too brutally honest either. I hope he's right that what they are seeing is correctable. Why is it so hard to get this thing right? I wonder if they will sell out a bit more to stop the run against MN. Hopefully they will force Ponder to throw on Thursday.

This gets to something I've been pondering lately: first, why do MM's teams start out so slowly, and secondly, what's up with - for, I think, the third week in a row - MM saying that the defense was surprised at some of the stuff other teams threw at them.

First, why the slow starts? I don't read much from other coaches saying that it's okay, it's still early, we're ironing out the bugs (which is the sense I get from MM). I remember hearing interviews with Joe Gibbs when I lived in Maryland, and he always, always emphasized the importance of winning the first game. I know it's a marathon and all, but it's as if MM expects his team to not really have their shit together in the first quarter of the season. I'm sure he wants to win, but does he see the beginning of the season as part of the development of the team, more than other coaches do?

Secondly, what does it say that MM seems to have been surprised at the stuff other offenses are throwing at them? He said this after the Seattle game, and he said it again after the Bear game. Unscouted looks, tried some things we haven't seen - I really don't hear much from other coaches along this line. WTF is going on with this?

[denverYooper]

This gets to something I've been pondering lately: first, why do MM's teams start out so slowly, and secondly, what's up with - for, I think, the third week in a row - MM saying that the defense was surprised at some of the stuff other teams threw at them.

First, why the slow starts? I don't read much from other coaches saying that it's okay, it's still early, we're ironing out the bugs (which is the sense I get from MM). I remember hearing interviews with Joe Gibbs when I lived in Maryland, and he always, always emphasized the importance of winning the first game. I know it's a marathon and all, but it's as if MM expects his team to not really have their shit together in the first quarter of the season. I'm sure he wants to win, but does he see the beginning of the season as part of the development of the team, more than other coaches do?

Secondly, what does it say that MM seems to have been surprised at the stuff other offenses are throwing at them? He said this after the Seattle game, and he said it again after the Bear game. Unscouted looks, tried some things we haven't seen - I really don't hear much from other coaches along this line. WTF is going on with this?

Other coaches have to resort to trickery. The Packers just line up and beat you (or 2 teams, anyhow...).

[3irty1]

Lets not confuse the scheme with the playcalling. I can't pretend not to be baffled by Capers's playcalling all the time. Although strangely my experience calling plays NCAA 2007 for xbox hasn't fueled me with enough arrogance to pretend I know better than someone whose won AP coach of the year, won a superbowl, or produced three different defensive players of the year. Not that if MM kicked his ass to the curb I wouldn't be thrilled or expect improvement, but that's because I know it wouldn't be an Internet message board choosing the replacement.

I have yet to see the scheme that doesn't require a 2nd level of linebackers so unless you think there are better linebackers sitting on the bench, I don't know what else he's supposed to do. You've proposed a 3-3 but not in any conventional sense as every teams implementation of a 3-3 would keep both our 2nd level guys at the 2nd level.

Your position that its Capers's fault for playing the subpar talent he's given is a very flimsy excuse to shift the blame to where you want it to be. We all agree the talent is not there "and that should be the end of that portion of the debate."

[Fritz]

Other coaches have to resort to trickery. The Packers just line up and beat you (or 2 teams, anyhow...).

We wish. I'm just surprised that MM and Capers can be so apparently easily surprised by what other teams have concocted.

And I'm surprised at what appears to be a somewhat lacksadaisical attitude toward the importance of the early games. It's like the first four games are MM's science lab.

[Carolina_Packer]

We wish. I'm just surprised that MM and Capers can be so apparently easily surprised by what other teams have concocted.

And I'm surprised at what appears to be a somewhat lacksadaisical attitude toward the importance of the early games. It's like the first four games are MM's science lab.

Unless MM is just saying that about being surprised to cover for how lousy the gap discipline was. PB mentioned that players were swarming to the ball, right out of their gap responsibility!

Is this too simplistic to ask, why doesn't the defense take more time to diagnose what the other team is trying to do (containing) instead of seemingly attacking on every play and (often) flying out of position?

This 1. Diagnose 2. Briefly Wait 3. React instead of this 1. Attack 2. Say "Oh Shit!" 3. Turn and Chase

[Guiness]

Unless MM is just saying that about being surprised to cover for how lousy the gap discipline was. PB mentioned that players were swarming to the ball, right out of their gap responsibility!

Is this too simplistic to ask, why doesn't the defense take more time to diagnose what the other team is trying to do (containing) instead of seemingly attacking on every play and (often) flying out of position?

This 1. Diagnose 2. Briefly Wait 3. React instead of this 1. Attack 2. Say "Oh Shit!" 3. Turn and Chase

Which one does 4. Profit! go after?

[pbmax]

I think the "surprised" quote has become boilerplate. Something to throw out there that may or may not be the reality but answers the question while giving away nothing. He used it too often otherwise. He's also an vet coach with a Super Bowl win, so he can admit to missing something. I don't think its easy for M3 to admit this is 2006-2009.

However, since the Packers new 4-3 has had some big leaks, I would be stunned if teams aren't just running new stuff to take advantage of what other teams expose.

[wist43]

Lets not confuse the scheme with the playcalling. I can't pretend not to be baffled by Capers's playcalling all the time. Although strangely my experience calling plays NCAA 2007 for xbox hasn't fueled me with enough arrogance to pretend I know better than someone whose won AP coach of the year, won a superbowl, or produced three different defensive players of the year. Not that if MM kicked his ass to the curb I wouldn't be thrilled or expect improvement, but that's because I know it wouldn't be an Internet message board choosing the replacement.

I have yet to see the scheme that doesn't require a 2nd level of linebackers so unless you think there are better linebackers sitting on the bench, I don't know what else he's supposed to do. You've proposed a 3-3 but not in any conventional sense as every teams implementation of a 3-3 would keep both our 2nd level guys at the 2nd level.

Your position that its Capers's fault for playing the subpar talent he's given is a very flimsy excuse to shift the blame to where you want it to be. We all agree the talent is not there "and that should be the end of that portion of the debate."

I don't agree that there isn't enough talent there at all... I agree our ILB's suck huge tit - but other than that, I like our talent most everywhere else on defense.

It isn't the players who are scheming and playcalling to have only 4 defenders in the box on 3rd and 1 - that's dunderdummy; it isn't the players that playcall to completely abandon a WR when the QB is still behind the LOS, and then call for a Safety to come hustling over from 20 yds away; it isn't the players who decide who is on the field and who is standing on the sideline.

No, I don't agree that it is talent at all - it is dunderdummy who has had 2 of our worst defenders on the field at all times, and he is the one making the playcalls that put our players in impossible positions.

There is never a rationale that can excuse 4 men in the box in short yardage situations... and even if they do spread you out, is there some rule that says the center and guards must be uncovered??

Dom Capers is the general - whatever happened to "the buck stops here"?? Even some of the other Homers are able to read the writing on the wall now... how is it you can't read it 3irty1??

[3irty1]

I don't agree that there isn't enough talent there at all... I agree our ILB's suck huge tit - but other than that, I like our talent most everywhere else on defense.

It isn't the players who are scheming and playcalling to have only 4 defenders in the box on 3rd and 1 - that's dunderdummy; it isn't the players that playcall to completely abandon a WR when the QB is still behind the LOS, and then call for a Safety to come hustling over from 20 yds away; it isn't the players who decide who is on the field and who is standing on the sideline.

No, I don't agree that it is talent at all - it is dunderdummy who has had 2 of our worst defenders on the field at all times, and he is the one making the playcalls that put our players in impossible positions.

There is never a rationale that can excuse 4 men in the box in short yardage situations... and even if they do spread you out, is there some rule that says the center and guards must be uncovered??

Dom Capers is the general - whatever happened to "the buck stops here"?? Even some of the other Homers are able to read the writing on the wall now... how is it you can't read it 3irty1??

"The box" isn't some amorphous shape you get to draw such that it excludes both OLB's. Sometimes our slot corner is there as well and once in a while a safety. Your commentary/obsessions on our formations would mean something if you knew a tenth of what you think you know. You'd love to centralize all the blame on one guy to the point where you just implied that Sam Shields peaking in the backfield was a Dom Capers play call. I see more variables than that and I don't think its as simple as you'd like it to be. One internet loon's hyperbole rants about how Dom is an even crazier more incompetent loon isn't so much writing on the wall as it is scratching in a restroom stall.

[pbmax]

it isn't the players that playcall to completely abandon a WR when the QB is still behind the LOS

No, that's called a fantastically designed play that even defeated Saban's defense. Sometimes you get caught in the wrong defense and the O gets one on you. When you have a rookie safety who did not react fast enough, that's even worse for the D.

Most of the other monster misdirection plays the Packers have been allowing are players not being cognizant of the backside of the defense and over-committing play side.

[wist43]

"The box" isn't some amorphous shape you get to draw such that it excludes both OLB's. Sometimes our slot corner is there as well and once in a while a safety. Your commentary/obsessions on our formations would mean something if you knew a tenth of what you think you know. You'd love to centralize all the blame on one guy to the point where you just implied that Sam Shields peaking in the backfield was a Dom Capers play call. I see more variables than that and I don't think its as simple as you'd like it to be. One internet loon's hyperbole rants about how Dom is an even crazier more incompetent loon isn't so much writing on the wall as it is scratching in a restroom stall.

You're unbelievable, lol... of course it was a Capers play call!!!

You must not have watched the video I posted of Seattle's Brock Huard breaking down that play and explaining that Seattle reacted to how Capers was defending that action... they set him up, and he walked right into it - of course it was on Capers.

If you like giving up 235 yds rushing/game, and leaving WR's running free all over the field?? Capers is ur man.

[wist43]

No, that's called a fantastically designed play that even defeated Saban's defense. Sometimes you get caught in the wrong defense and the O gets one on you. When you have a rookie safety who did not react fast enough, that's even worse for the D.

Most of the other monster misdirection plays the Packers have been allowing are players not being cognizant of the backside of the defense and over-committing play side.

And who put them in that position?? Who put them in those positions to fail?? Who did not prepare them to recognize what was coming??

You and 3irty1 are the two biggest apologists for failure I've ever seen... truly amazing. Do you guys work in government?? Your motto should be - FAILURE IS AN OPTION!!!