The Defense - Again, the Defense :(

[pbmax]

And who put them in that position?? Who put them in those positions to fail?? Who did not prepare them to recognize what was coming??

You and 3irty1 are the two biggest apologists for failure I've ever seen... truly amazing. Do you guys work in government?? Your motto should be - FAILURE IS AN OPTION!!!

You think an offense has never caught a defense unprepared with a play? How many times have you seen a read-option pass to the weak side with a one receiver route?

You think there is some magical defensive alignment and scheme that allows both attack and is solid from sideline to sideline with no weakness against ANY play call?

A magical defense that never lets an opponent get into free space and catch a ball? A defense that doesn't have, even hidden, an exposed pressure point?

The problem with your litany of complaints is that it ranges from the mundane to the exotic. Run defense in nickel and dime is a problem. Preparing for every unknown read option wrinkle is not.

[Bretsky]

DOM called a very good game versus the Lions overall....just wanted to note it since many seemed to ignore his work that week

[KYPack]

And who put them in that position?? Who put them in those positions to fail?? Who did not prepare them to recognize what was coming??

You and 3irty1 are the two biggest apologists for failure I've ever seen... truly amazing. Do you guys work in government?? Your motto should be - FAILURE IS AN OPTION!!!

Wist, I think you are hung up on the DC and his schemes, So you blame the coach and the x's & O's. I tend to think it is the Jimmys and the Joe's. There is a problem in the execution and players are ultimately responsible. Peppers and others got sucked in last week and gave up some big plays.

One way or the other, we got troubles. We are dead last in rushing D in the NFL. Last with a bullet. We are the only team that has allowed over 700 yards rushing this season. Our opponents average 176 yds/gm. That's also worst in the NFL. Hell, Oakland is only allowing 158/gm. We've given up 42 rushing first downs, also the worst number of all 32 teams. Oakland has only allowed 32 rushing 1st dns. Many times, excessive totals happen because a team has been gashed by long rushes. Not us. We've only given up 3 runs over twenty and none over forty. We are getting pounded by the run in smaller chunks than the other shitty rushing D's.

If this don't pick up, we'll be lucky to wind up 8-8.

We have played some excellent running ball clubs and we will have better numbers when we play some of the more pedestrian running clubs.

But, we will get embarrassed in the play-offs if we don't turn around our rushing D.

[Carolina_Packer]

But, we will get embarrassed in the play-offs if we don't turn around our rushing D.

Totally agree. So, there's the big question...how will they do it? So is it poor scheme or poor execution of scheme? While that debate rages on, can someone give us some hope here? McCarthy said in his press conferences following the game that the mistakes he is seeing with the run D are all correctable. I hope he's right. OK, putting aside whether Capers should stay or go for now (he's staying the rest of the year at least), what will they be correcting specifically? What adjustments might they make? Is it just guys getting pushed around? Is it guys out of position, losing gap responsibility?

Let's not forget we're all Packer fans. I hope they can get these problems worked out.

[George Cumby]

What I can't get my head around is WHY do we have to rehash the same shit for four years? Blown assignments, bad communication, poor execution....... AGAIN. There's talent there on the defense but it isn't being optimized. Why not? The poor fundamentals is what really kills me.

[Fritz]

Unless MM is just saying that about being surprised to cover for how lousy the gap discipline was. PB mentioned that players were swarming to the ball, right out of their gap responsibility!

Is this too simplistic to ask, why doesn't the defense take more time to diagnose what the other team is trying to do (containing) instead of seemingly attacking on every play and (often) flying out of position?

This 1. Diagnose 2. Briefly Wait 3. React instead of this 1. Attack 2. Say "Oh Shit!" 3. Turn and Chase

I don't want this post to appear to be attacking you - because it's not - but for years one of our complaints with this defense (and I was one of the ones complaining) was that it was too static, too read-and-react. After Kaepernick torched the Pack in the playoffs a couple years ago, the defense seemed to go even more toward this "hold your gap" mentality to try to contain. One of the problems three years ago, I think, was Raji not doing this and penetrating a lot against Minny, allowing Peterson to run wild. We also complained (myself included) that all this work to not have any holes in the pocket for QB's to run through meant nice clean pockets for the passer.

So MM has changed it up - more penetrating, more shooting gaps. And now this shit it happening.

I don't know what the hell to think any more. I couldn't stand that contain stuff the way it was run, because it seemed to mean that opposing QB's had all day to throw. Now Capers is getting pressure with only four, but apparently at the expense of allowing running backs gaps as wide as a porn star's.

I'm frustrated, frustrated, frustrated by this defense. I hope to goodness Capers is gone after this season. In the meantime, are we once again falling back on "it's the fundamentals"? Can't our staff teach them as well as other staffs that are not alllowing 170+ running yards per game?

[wist43]

You think an offense has never caught a defense unprepared with a play? How many times have you seen a read-option pass to the weak side with a one receiver route?

You think there is some magical defensive alignment and scheme that allows both attack and is solid from sideline to sideline with no weakness against ANY play call?

A magical defense that never lets an opponent get into free space and catch a ball? A defense that doesn't have, even hidden, an exposed pressure point?

The problem with your litany of complaints is that it ranges from the mundane to the exotic. Run defense in nickel and dime is a problem. Preparing for every unknown read option wrinkle is not.

Of course you're going to get beat - once in a while; of course a team is going to get the better of you - once in a while; of course you're going to zig when you should have zagged...

We're not witnessing any of that - what we're witnessing is play after play failure; game after game failure; season after season failure... it's the same crap over and over again.

I'm not the bad guy here - I'm just pointing out the obvious, or at least what should be obvious. You guys seem to lack the stones to call a spade a spade - when is enough ever enough for you kool-aid drinkers??

You guys don't believe in accountability - lucky for you, neither does MM or TT.

[wist43]

Wist, I think you are hung up on the DC and his schemes, So you blame the coach and the x's & O's. I tend to think it is the Jimmys and the Joe's. There is a problem in the execution and players are ultimately responsible. Peppers and others got sucked in last week and gave up some big plays.

One way or the other, we got troubles. We are dead last in rushing D in the NFL. Last with a bullet. We are the only team that has allowed over 700 yards rushing this season. Our opponents average 176 yds/gm. That's also worst in the NFL. Hell, Oakland is only allowing 158/gm. We've given up 42 rushing first downs, also the worst number of all 32 teams. Oakland has only allowed 32 rushing 1st dns. Many times, excessive totals happen because a team has been gashed by long rushes. Not us. We've only given up 3 runs over twenty and none over forty. We are getting pounded by the run in smaller chunks than the other shitty rushing D's.

If this don't pick up, we'll be lucky to wind up 8-8.

We have played some excellent running ball clubs and we will have better numbers when we play some of the more pedestrian running clubs.

But, we will get embarrassed in the play-offs if we don't turn around our rushing D.

If a DC is putting his players in positions to be successful - and then they are not making plays, are not making the tackle, are not forcing the play inside, et al, whatever their responsibility is - then you can say it is on the players.

But when a DC is putting his players in impossible situations, or such difficult situations that it is calling for the player to make a superhuman play - then there is something wrong with what the DC is doing.

As I said to Max - once in a while?? sure... it's gonna happen, and a defense is going to be out of position, or outschemed on a given play, etc; but we're not seeing a bad play call here and there, or a bad game plan on occassion, or a couple of bad games per season, etc. What we're seeing is a mess on just about every snap, in every game for the past 4 seasons.

And it is philosophical - Capers does not view controlling the LOS and being stout up the middle as being important, and it is painfully obvious. We are dead last in rush defense - and we have been utterly pathetic in just about every aspect of playing defense for years running now.

What Capers is doing is fundamentally unsound - I don't know how else to say it. If something is unsound - it will collapse; and that is what we've been witness to for the past 60 games or so... over and over again.

[3irty1]

You're unbelievable, lol... of course it was a Capers play call!!!

You must not have watched the video I posted of Seattle's Brock Huard breaking down that play and explaining that Seattle reacted to how Capers was defending that action... they set him up, and he walked right into it - of course it was on Capers.

If you like giving up 235 yds rushing/game, and leaving WR's running free all over the field?? Capers is ur man.

Capers' play call may have put Sam between a rock and a hard place, that shit happens, but he still botched the assignment by abandoning his man. It should have been an 8 yard run. Sam has a history of peeking in the backfield every since being in the league, that's a Seattle play call targeting that tendency. Absolutely terrible example to try and pin on Capers. The premise of your argument is that Dom Capers hold's an entire team's worth of incompetence and that argument is almost entirely from incredulity.

Nobody is saying the defense is fine or that Capers is blameless. I could call you an apologist for Thompson and the players because you're shifting their blame onto Capers. Hell Thompson is the real general. The buck stops here right? Your tiresome rants from repetition are more unsound than anything Capers has ever put on the field. If you want to be taken seriously by me you'll have to cut the logical fallacies, the overblown exaggeration, and back up claims. So probably never.

[wist43]

Capers' play call may have put Sam between a rock and a hard place, that shit happens, but he still botched the assignment by abandoning his man. It should have been an 8 yard run. Sam has a history of peeking in the backfield every since being in the league, that's a Seattle play call targeting that tendency. Absolutely terrible example to try and pin on Capers. The premise of your argument is that Dom Capers hold's an entire team's worth of incompetence and that argument is almost entirely from incredulity.

Nobody is saying the defense is fine or that Capers is blameless. I could call you an apologist for Thompson and the players because you're shifting their blame onto Capers. Hell Thompson is the real general. The buck stops here right? Your tiresome rants from repetition are more unsound than anything Capers has ever put on the field. If you want to be taken seriously by me you'll have to cut the logical fallacies, the overblown exaggeration, and back up claims. So probably never.

Sam was not between a rock and a hard place - he did what he was assigned to do. Everyone has acknowledged that Shields reacted properly within the misguided design of the defense - he was supposed to abandon the receiver, and the safety was supposed to pick him up, i.e. the design was unsound. That is entirely on Capers.

Seattle's offensive coaches saw it earlier in the game, and knew that if they ran that play, Shields would crash and Lockette would be left alone with only a rookie safety, several yards off, between Lockette and a TD. We all saw the result - Wilson laughing and looking back at his coach as if to say, "... yep, it was there for the takin'... easy peazy".

We are giving up 176 yds/game on the ground; we have allowed record setting performances to opponents; we have been repeatedly embarrassed in the playoffs and on national TV; we have had one of the worst defenses in the league for several years running - those are not "exaggerations" - that is the sad reality of Dom Capers defense.

--------------------------------------------

As for Thompson and the players he's brought in... I've never wavered from my position - good players, bad fit for the 3-4. It was up to Capers to adjust his scheme to make use of those players - he's never done that.

If there is blame for Thompson it is two-fold, i.e. the players he drafts not being a good fit; and 2) not forcing Capers to adapt; and 2a) failing that, firing his ass for not making it work.

Any way you slice it - there is plenty of blame to go around, and there is no accountability.

I keep hoping Capers will get his head out of his ass, but that hope isn't realistic; he does fundamentally unsound things on a regular basis; he doesn't think the opponent will run the ball - ever; he plays russian rhoulette with how he deploys his defensive fronts - almost always foresaking the interior line; he puts incredible pressure on players at the point of attack, with little hope of getting support there in time; on and on....

There is simply no defense for Capers.

[pbmax]

I believe we heard afterward that Shields played it correctly, but I don't recall whether that was the official word or the word leaking out of the locker room. If it was the correct technique, then it puts the safety in a tough spot. And that may be why a Capers D needs vets. The safety, if we assume there is not supposed to be linebacker help, needs to read his first key and then the QB or the route. And I think it was single safety so he has a lot of ground to cover.

But that is just an evolutionary step to the game between defense and offense. The Packers had engineered a single high safety defense committed to stopped Lynch to the strong side of the offense. Seattle found a way to pull the linebackers into the LOS with a play fake (the read option) and when they or the safety bite, he rolls out to run or pass. They get to isolate a player, make him choose and then take advantage of the choice. You won't see that D against that personnel formation again.

Georgia did the same thing to Alabama the previous year. Saban is not a man given to designing unsound defenses but he got caught by the same damn play. The play is indicative only of the offense getting a one play advantage over the D.

Much more problematic are two other questions wist asks, both of which are tangentially related to this play.

1. Are Capers defenses regularly over engineered to stop certain kinds of plays and therefore constantly vulnerable to counters?

2. Does the over-engineering come from Capers tendency to be a Mad Scientist or because he is covering flaws in his defense? I know Capers board and internet rep is that of mad scientist, but he isn't Ryan or Gregg Williams. He does design new blitzes, but his most common calls are pretty standard stuff. He does not invent new defenses every week. He tweaks assignments. He follows McCarthy's dictates that he change the strength of his D by substituting personnel rather than invent a new scheme. *

I think he is covering for flaws. The switch to the 4-3 and the new bodies on the line have introduced new variability that is hard to account for and Fritz could be right, they may want more penetration though I am not sure. But just as gap discipline was great to start the year last year, its been piss poor this year. And it is often, though not limited to, the middle of the defense. Now the why they can't be consistent is troubling.

* I would bet that whatever threshold the D staff changed after '09 (down and distance and tendency) to determine when to use nickel rather than base happened at McCarthy's urging. He figured they would always be in shootouts so play pass defense first. So put the nickel group in earlier to counter it. As for new schemes, we have seen Psycho and amoeba defense, but that is just window dressing on a standard pass D or fire zone, making the O line guess who and how many are coming. That is less scheme and more personnel to me.

I don't like Offensive based HCs telling their defense what to scheme. Scout, hand over confidential data? Sure. But don't muck up the works with new top-down edicts. The defense is designed from the bottom up to adhere to principles and that informs everything from practice to play calls and player acquisition. When I watch the Packers D, I see a mishmash of junk and very few doing their job well. It doesn't look well organized at all in the front seven. Its the exact opposite of how the year started last year.

[3irty1]

Sam was not between a rock and a hard place - he did what he was assigned to do. Everyone has acknowledged that Shields reacted properly within the misguided design of the defense - he was supposed to abandon the receiver, and the safety was supposed to pick him up, i.e. the design was unsound. That is entirely on Capers.

Seattle's offensive coaches saw it earlier in the game, and knew that if they ran that play, Shields would crash and Lockette would be left alone with only a rookie safety, several yards off, between Lockette and a TD. We all saw the result - Wilson laughing and looking back at his coach as if to say, "... yep, it was there for the takin'... easy peazy".

We are giving up 176 yds/game on the ground; we have allowed record setting performances to opponents; we have been repeatedly embarrassed in the playoffs and on national TV; we have had one of the worst defenses in the league for several years running - those are not "exaggerations" - that is the sad reality of Dom Capers defense.

--------------------------------------------

As for Thompson and the players he's brought in... I've never wavered from my position - good players, bad fit for the 3-4. It was up to Capers to adjust his scheme to make use of those players - he's never done that.

If there is blame for Thompson it is two-fold, i.e. the players he drafts not being a good fit; and 2) not forcing Capers to adapt; and 2a) failing that, firing his ass for not making it work.

Any way you slice it - there is plenty of blame to go around, and there is no accountability.

I keep hoping Capers will get his head out of his ass, but that hope isn't realistic; he does fundamentally unsound things on a regular basis; he doesn't think the opponent will run the ball - ever; he plays russian rhoulette with how he deploys his defensive fronts - almost always foresaking the interior line; he puts incredible pressure on players at the point of attack, with little hope of getting support there in time; on and on....

There is simply no defense for Capers.

How long is several years? One? We had the 11th ranked defense in 2012. That's exaggerating. With you every success Capers has is attributed to the opposition's own incompetence or blind luck. Every one of your arguments is an absurd caricature of Capers painting him as a idiot who huffs paint until he's knee-walking stoned before calling every game. You make no effort to isolate him as the cause of any failures, instead just launch your daily witch hunt. Show me another professional defensive coordinator who is overcoming the dearth of talent we've had in the same places. Your assumptions on the players and their fit aren't shared by me. Am I just supposed to just believe you know better than Thompson as well as Capers? Because I don't.

What I think is you don't want to give Thompson his share of blame because he won't make a believable witch. Not many will call for Thompson's head because they know it'd be stupid to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Same for MM, many of the players etc. A few of us on here care more about the truth than the sweet dopamine drip of indulging our god and martyr complexes.

[Carolina_Packer]

It's ultimately TT's responsibility to get it right. he's the GM and President of Football Operations. Period. It's his job to identify whether something is working or not working and find a way to correct it, even if it means making a personnel change. I think it will ultimately prove to have become a bad fit and Capers will pay with his job.

What is the difference between the defenses Capers had in his most successful stops and the ones he's had in the past few years with the Packers? Established veterans and leaders who play well together and get what he's trying to do.

Capers was good when he had established talent, just like some teachers are good at teaching the advanced kids in math, and other teachers are good at working with kids who need a lot of patience, who don't get it right away. Is it possible that Capers is a poor fit for the Packers because he's better when coaching established defensive players and not so much when he's on a team full of players who are young and trying to get established and gel together? Three conditions have to exist for this defense to have success, given how they are currently led and constituted. 1. Capers has to have the ability to teach his scheme to younger players. 2. Those players, by the demands of the team building philosophy, have to be quick studies and be able to assimilate quickly because they will be relied on sooner that many other teams. 3. TT has to knock it out of the park when acquiring talent via the draft. If you look at recent drafts, there have been many question marks on the talent acquired on defense, even when a year of emphasis (I'm looking at you 2012 draft).

Perhaps they hired a calculus teacher who sucks when teaching freshman algebra and the students want to do well, but they really don't get it. Time for Principal Thompson to make a decision.

[ThunderDan]

It's ultimately TT's responsibility to get it right. he's the GM and President of Football Operations. Period. It's his job to identify whether something is working or not working and find a way to correct it, even if it means making a personnel change. I think it will ultimately prove to have become a bad fit and Capers will pay with his job.

What is the difference between the defenses Capers had in his most successful stops and the ones he's had in the past few years with the Packers? Established veterans and leaders who play well together and get what he's trying to do.

Capers was good when he had established talent, just like some teachers are good at teaching the advanced kids in math, and other teachers are good at working with kids who need a lot of patience, who don't get it right away. Is it possible that Capers is a poor fit for the Packers because he's better when coaching established defensive players and not so much when he's on a team full of players who are young and trying to get established and gel together? Three conditions have to exist for this defense to have success, given how they are currently led and constituted. 1. Capers has to have the ability to teach his scheme to younger players. 2. Those players, by the demands of the team building philosophy, have to be quick studies and be able to assimilate quickly because they will be relied on sooner that many other teams. 3. TT has to knock it out of the park when acquiring talent via the draft. If you look at recent drafts, there have been many question marks on the talent acquired on defense, even when a year of emphasis (I'm looking at you 2012 draft).

Perhaps they hired a calculus teacher who sucks when teaching freshman algebra and the students want to do well, but they really don't get it. Time for Principal Thompson to make a decision.

I remember talking about the draft at the beginning of the TT era. We had 4 players with 4-8 years of NFL experience because of Sherman/Wolfe drafts. Those are the guys that are supposed to be your core.

Luckily now we have a lot more of those guys but a draft like 2012 can leave a hole in the roster in 4 or 5 years.

[wist43]

So dunderdummy actually earned his paycheck this week...

He bottled up the middle of the field - for the most part; blitzed and actually bothered to cover some receivers. To be sure Ponder helped a lot by missing open receivers, and not pulling the trigger when he needed to, but for the most part, our defense looked like an actual NFL defense for a change.

Next week we will be right back to the same old Dom crap, but at least for one week Capers did his job.