Is Aaron Rodgers more of the problem than we might think?

[RashanGary]

And for the record, I was a Favre hater before it was cool to be a Favre hater. I was calling out his antics when he was just skipping OTAs and the off-season programs and had his own private locker room. I said Sherman should have never allowed that. It did make sending him his locker during the retirement he faked so he could skip the offseason program that much funnier though.

I’ve talked the last couple years about Rodgers stubbornness at the line of scrimmage and refusal to run. Now I’m getting louder because he’s about to run Lafleur out of town before he even gets a chance.

[texaspackerbacker]

Seriously? LaFleur will not be run out of town because he will see the wisdom of going along with having Rodgers audible out of runs a large part of the time. They will use LaFleur's motion and presnap stuff, and hopefully it will open up receivers a little better and/or confuse the defense. However, running more would be a mistake, and discouraging Rodgers from extending plays would be a mistake. Thus, I don't expect LaFleur to do those things. Furthermore, I suspect all of this was discussed and settled before he ever signed on to come to the Packers.

[pbmax]

I had a person tell me today, the reason Lovie smith said he didn’t allow Urlacher to call the plays, even though he was capable, is because he’d blitz himself on every play. Might explain some of the reason MM always said he planned to run more but it didn’t happen.

Re-watch the Seattle playoff game and get back to me.

Or Fail Mary game.

I understand Rodgers and McCarthy were at odds, especially in these last few years but McCarthy being locked into one mode of play calling and later regretting it is the theme of his tenure.

[pbmax]

Teams show 8 man boxes presnap for this reason. So the audibling is being neutralized and even taken advantage of. That’s why motioning and cluster formations are often times a better way to truly see what a defense is playing. It forces a defense to show its cards.

The third sentence is true.

But the first sentence makes no sense to me. Teams don't always show 8 man boxes presnap to the Packers since Lacy's second year, if then. Except for maybe last year, team's don't dare the Packers to throw. Quite the opposite.

[pbmax]

Another way to keep defenses honest is to balance pass and run.

The threat of pass and run keeps defenses honest. Balancing them in actual attempts just depresses your score.

You keep the threat of the run alive, do it when its to your advantage, otherwise passing is advantageous.

Even if the defense tilts against the pass, if you are good, it still might be to your benefit to pass. Vastly more productive.

[pbmax]

Lafleurs creativity focuses on making plays that have solutions for a variety of defenses. If the defense was showing covet 1 and goes to cover 2, then follow this progression. In the event of cover 3 then this. In the event of quarters then that. The plays are more flexible to post snap defensive changes.

This offense isn't an option route offense. La Fleur himself has said there is an answer if they don't get the anticipated defense. Its called a check down in most cases, in others it might be a crossing route. Not some other elaborately option routed play, that isn't what he does. Its the check down. And its no different than any other offense: read the D, if you see X, go here. If you see Y, go here.

Now Rodgers and McCarthy didn't learn to love check downs until the offense first stalled in 2015. And then the offense got shorter and shorter and shorter until it was a collapsed dwarf star. This was a failure of the late version of the Packer offense as they should have benefitted more from throwing short occasionally rather than bombs away on the sidelines (for the purposes of this discussion, I am ignoring his first year starting where there were a LOT of check downs).

The problem with check downs is down and distance. You need first downs and teams (like the Packers) LOVE it when you throw the check down. And when the TEs are Graham and Lewis, and the RB is Williams, I am not convinced they will convert enough YAC for enough first downs.

Aaron Jones might, but he is one guy who probably doesn't need his workload increased.

You can make this offense work if the running game is humming and putting you in good down and distance. But you need something else when behind or trying to score late.

[RashanGary]

Pb,

McCarthy was really good about not airing dirty laundry, but he showed frustration several times. Winston Moss on the other hand didn’t mince words when he talked about Rodgers.

Winston Moss twitter quote:
Ponder this... what Championship teams have are great leadership! Period! It’s not the offensive guru trend, it’s not the safe trend. Find somebody that is going to hold #12 and everybody in this building to a #LombardiStandard! Period!
/quote



Holding the ball, no check downs, very few run plays... I believe all of that is Rodgers doing what he wants instead of being on the same page with his coach. It’s the equivalent of Favre throwing into double coverage tight windows instead of throwing the ball away and living to fight another down. It’s like 2005 all over again. Favre was still the darling of Green Bay and nobody could talk about his interceptions without endless excuses pouring. Now it’s Rodgers getting the free pass.

[Joemailman]

Pb,

McCarthy was really good about not airing dirty laundry, but he showed frustration several times. Winston Moss on the other hand didn’t mince words when he talked about Rodgers.

Winston Moss twitter quote:
Ponder this... what Championship teams have are great leadership! Period! It’s not the offensive guru trend, it’s not the safe trend. Find somebody that is going to hold #12 and everybody in this building to a #LombardiStandard! Period!
/quote



Holding the ball, no check downs, very few run plays... I believe all of that is Rodgers doing what he wants instead of being on the same page with his coach. It’s the equivalent of Favre throwing into double coverage tight windows instead of throwing the ball away and living to fight another down. It’s like 2005 all over again. Favre was still the darling of Green Bay and nobody could talk about his interceptions without endless excuses pouring. Now it’s Rodgers getting the free pass.

You're being selective on what Moss was saying. Moss said "Find somebody that is going to hold #12 and everybody in this building to a #LombardiStandard! Period! I think he was saying that MM had lost control of the whole team, not just Rodgers.

There are 2 ways to look at the current situation. One is that Rodgers is not a good fit for this offense. The other is that Rodgers has the ability, with some adjustments by both him and LaFleur, to execute this offense better than anyone has before him.

[RashanGary]

It could go well. I hope it does! And I’ll be happy to admit I’m wrong too! As much of a stubborn mule as I can be with what I’m seeing, I’m very quick to admit I’m wrong when I’m shown to be wrong. And I hope I am here!

[mraynrand]

Re-watch the Seattle playoff game and get back to me.

You’re a cruel man.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

You’re a cruel man.

I was at the Seattle playoff game. Grant fumbled twice in the first quarter. McCarthy wasn’t one to preach accountability, so he didn’t drag Grant by the facemask into a doghouse. Fat man sent Grant right back into the fray.

Packers fell 0-14 but ended up routing the Seagulls 40-something in a snow storm. Favre had a nice game. Grant rebounded like Dennis Rodman going after a rebound. Game was also Atari Bigby’s coming out party.

The next week, Favre threw his last pass as a Packer. I think some Giant named Cory Webster caught it. Took me two months to get over that game. Even skipped the Super Bowl.

In hindsight, Todd pretty much doomed the 2007 season from the get go - and Favre’s Packer career - with his failure to trade a 4th and some cocky backup QB named Rodgers to Oakland for Rand Moss.

[mraynrand]

Narrator: “Randy Moss lost to the same team that beat the Packers and doesn’t have a ring like Stubby and Todd”

[pbmax]

Pb,

McCarthy was really good about not airing dirty laundry, but he showed frustration several times. Winston Moss on the other hand didn’t mince words when he talked about Rodgers.

Winston Moss twitter quote:
Ponder this... what Championship teams have are great leadership! Period! It’s not the offensive guru trend, it’s not the safe trend. Find somebody that is going to hold #12 and everybody in this building to a #LombardiStandard! Period!
/quote



Holding the ball, no check downs, very few run plays... I believe all of that is Rodgers doing what he wants instead of being on the same page with his coach. It’s the equivalent of Favre throwing into double coverage tight windows instead of throwing the ball away and living to fight another down. It’s like 2005 all over again. Favre was still the darling of Green Bay and nobody could talk about his interceptions without endless excuses pouring. Now it’s Rodgers getting the free pass.

He was very good about not airing dirty laundry. He was not very good about sticking with the run except for the Ryan Grant first stint in ZBS and Eddie Lacy's first two years. And funny how Aaron Jones, once he got into the lineup, was getting 20 touches a game. Almost as if he stuck with the run when he trusted it.

Rodgers didn't audible out of those runs over the years. McCarthy did teach Rodgers to seek out single coverage and beat it to death.

And the coach, before the 2016 season that started with a good batch of offensive futility, stated publicly that they had been doing too much scheming in 2015 to get guys open and they needed to get back to fundamentals and win one on one matchups. Nothing could be further from the Shanahan-McVay offense than that statement.

And be careful with no check downs. The entire offense was check downs beginning with the great offensive slowdown in 2015 and then Nelson's injury. The extended offense was the only saving grace. If I never see another flat/slant throw to a slow TE on the flat route it will be too soon.

Rodgers did spend too much time trying to get something deep, but at times in the last few years, that WAS the offense.

I think there was the normal QB coach give and take, probably sliding in Rodgers favor up through 2014 and his second MVP. Then the relationship was torpedoed with the 2015 offensive disaster. Relatively speaking of course, as the defense could be so much worse.

[pbmax]

You’re a cruel man.

I actually turn off all TVs in the house if I see it being replayed according to the on screen TV guide. I don't want any accidental exposure.

[pbmax]

I was at the Seattle playoff game. Grant fumbled twice in the first quarter. McCarthy wasn’t one to preach accountability, so he didn’t drag Grant by the facemask into a doghouse. Fat man sent Grant right back into the fray.

Packers fell 0-14 but ended up routing the Seagulls 40-something in a snow storm. Favre had a nice game. Grant rebounded like Dennis Rodman going after a rebound. Game was also Atari Bigby’s coming out party.

The next week, Favre threw his last pass as a Packer. I think some Giant named Cory Webster caught it. Took me two months to get over that game. Even skipped the Super Bowl.

In hindsight, Todd pretty much doomed the 2007 season from the get go - and Favre’s Packer career - with his failure to trade a 4th and some cocky backup QB named Rodgers to Oakland for Rand Moss.

Wrong Seattle game.