MCGINN---NEW JSO ARTICLES..........THE BLAME FALLS ON

[Patler]

I also wonder if MM and coaches don't become a bit hamstrung when the depth at certain positions might be a first or second year player and not veteran depth as you might see on other teams. Can you win with your own youthful depth? Yes, if they can get up to speed and contribute quickly.

I'm glad we have a cap-minded GM who is always trying to find developmental talent for the back-end of the roster some of whom can ascend, such as Jayrone Elliott. That's one of the brightest examples of sign and develop, and will help keep the cap healthy. That said, I would not be completely opposed to finding someone better than Don Barclay/Josh Walker who do not have the footwork and athleticism to play OT. This is where I would consider getting a veteran for depth. Of course, one could argue that what is available from the free agent market might not be any better or serviceable to provide that depth. This is kind of the same conundrum of the backup QB. If you were talented enough, you'd likely be starting, and what team owner/GM not named Jerry Jones is going to give starter money to ensure backup depth? Personally, I would take a strong look at legit OT's in the 3rd/4th round of this year's draft. If they beat out Bach, so be it. We can still keep him as depth. If it pushes Bach to keep his job, then they have drafted someone who can be a versatile OT and our depth can be drafted depth. Obviously being drafted isn't always a guarantee, but generally, I'd rather take my chances on finding guys like Tretter in the draft, than waiting to see who might be available in the college free agent market after the draft.

I do not think you will find many who disagree with that, but, of course, you identified one of the key factors that people want to overlook. Are there really any free-agent tackles available who are any good who could be used as backups?

I think it was one of the pregame shows this year that discussed how bad tackle play had been. One of the commentators was someone I found credible, I don't recall if it was Howie Long, or one of the other former offensive or defensive linemen, but the gist of his comment was that there were a lot of tackles starting this year who, just a few years ago, would've been backups at best. While they didn't mention it, I would point out that Marshall Newhouse started 14 games of the 14 games he played this year for the Giants. I'm not sure there are many on here who would be satisfied with him as the backup left tackle, yet he started all year.

I think Ted Thompson has tried to maintain a steady flow of new blood for the offensive line. I expect he will continue to do so. ome will turn out, some will fail, but hopefully he will find one this year who will be at least a suitable backup left tackle. It is a tough spot to fill, and perhaps the best solution is JC Tretter, just as years ago the best solution was to move Flanagan from the starting center position to left tackle.

[Rutnstrut]

Yep. I'm sure they all sit around their offices and say "Gee guys, how can we be just exactly above average this season. Because fuck the Super Bowl. We want to win 10 games and be done with it".

Probably not. But on the other hand. They probably aren't saying what can we do differently to make us better. Because relying on the same stagnant tactics and HOPING for a better result is just fucking stupid. No one is saying that TT should go out and blow his whole wad on big name FA's. But a few solid vets in key positions can go a long ways.

[Rutnstrut]

this is a great post. Really great. One of the best ever on Packerrats because it concisely points out why all the idiots who constantly make these absurd comparisons and demands of Super Bowl wins are logically flawed. Excellent post Patler. And you can be sure it will be countered with either silence or more absurdity and howling from the likes of Red, Runtstrut, Yellowsnowman, Bertsky and the like.

I will say it again, I don't really care for stubby. But I don't think the team would be real far ahead by firing him. I do think that between stubby's downfalls and TT's MANY downfalls that the greater evil of the two is TT. That is not to say I think TT hasn't done a few good things, he is however very overrated imo.

[Bossman641]

As much as you love the "FA wins superbowls" shtick its always proven hollow. I think Ted did a good job this year, McCarthy and bad luck are the main culprits. Not that he's a bad coach. I'd prefer McCarthy as a coach to both Carroll and Tomlin but there are some guys I'd rather have.

Belichick is obviously a fabulous coach. Maybe even underrated considering his shortcomings as a GM. That is the big disadvantage of BB is that he doesn't play well with others so you'll never have an elite GM and coach at the same time. Take into account his history of punishment for breaking the rules and I can only be mildly envious of the Pats. Still BB is one of the few defensive philosophers of the game and I think history shows this is the best way to get trophies.

I think Sean Payton also compares favorably with McCarthy although the two are so similar its really a matter of taste. Both have that philosopher-coach thing going which has let them succeed with multiples offenses and craft proven game plans. Both are considered great QB-developers. Both great playcallers. Payton probably has a worse record than McCarthy and has also gotten in big trouble for the rules but I'd still prefer him because I think his offenses are diverse and more about mismatches. Everyone in Payton's offenses are like specialists which makes for some mismatches even coming off the bench. McCarthy used to be more willing to build his offense around a player like Finley or Cobb but that's always bit him in the ass with injuries and for the most part he seeks guys to be interchangeable parts. All the WR, TE, and OL need to play all the positions. Might be counter-intuitive but I think Payton's way might be more injury-proof.

I think Ron Rivera has a bunch of potential. He's not that proven but if you were about to start an NFL franchise right now I think he'd be the guy I'd want. "Riverboat Ron" seems to me like a Belichick type coach whos willing to question assumptions and spin defenses that are way more than a sum of their parts. He's equally comfortable with a 4-3 or 3-4. Seems like you give him any unfair advantage and he'll find a way to best leverage it.

Also I think you've got to like what we've seen from Arians so far. Another QB whisperer, perhaps the ultimate players coach, and most importantly a guy who seems to be able assemble a stud staff out of up-and-comers. Just the change he made in putting Fitz in the slot to turn him back into a playmaker shows some insight that other coaches lacked. I don't know if I'd give up McCarthy for Arians as I value the continuity but if I needed a head coach right now I'd rather hire Arians over McCarthy.

I don't disagree with your take. The interesting thing going forward will be to see how Rivera looks in the future. We (and McGinn) are always comparing the Packers to the "it" team right now. A few years ago it was the 49ers and Seattle. He's identified every NFC North team as the organization ready to blow past the Packers. With the exception of Seattle, they have all come and gone while the Packers keep puttering along.

The Panthers have 10 pro bowl players this year. Newton (1), Stewart (13), Kuechly (9), and Davis (14) were first round picks. Kalil (59) and Short (44) were second. Turner (92) was third round and Norman fifth (143). Olsen was received via trade from Chicago and Tolbert was a FA signing a few years back. It's obviously a lot easier to get impact players picking in the top half of the first round then it is in the late 20's.

[pbmax]

I think FA and then the subsequent dearth of quality talent knit together in one coherent story.

Unlike some positions (say 2 down RB), Tackle and other in demand positions always have fewer good starters than there is demand for. So when one hits FA, even with warts, he is bid into a higher pay scale than the talent market would otherwise demand. You are almost always paying a premium in March.

Why pay a premium for a replacement level guy? Michael Oher couldn't start any longer for the Ravens and one of the best O line coaches in the game couldn't make it work (Titans-Bob Bostad). Is he the reason Carolina is in the Super Bowl?

[pbmax]

BTW, you know one of the narratives about how great and self-evident Arians success is regarding hiring veteran coaches and letting them do their thing? Arians himself, Tom Moore, Tom Pratt, Larry Zierlein (whose photo will kick your ass if you stare at it too long). http://www.azcardinals.com/roster/coaches.html

Well as a corrective, get a load of the Tennessee Titans (3-13): Mike Mularkey, Terry Robiskie, Bobby April (McGinn nearly faints from blood pressure change when he reads this name), Bob Bostad, Sylvester Croom, and Ray Horton. http://www.titansonline.com/team/coaches.html

Belichick and McCarthy can hire Rand's refrigerator guy in comparison and get better results than the Titans did.

[mraynrand]

BTW, you know one of the narratives about how great and self-evident Arians success is regarding hiring veteran coaches and letting them do their thing? Arians himself, Tom Moore, Tom Pratt, Larry Zierlein (whose photo will kick your ass if you stare at it too long). http://www.azcardinals.com/roster/coaches.html

Vanilla Bob looks like the greeter at Shady Acres Funeral Home.

[Maxie the Taxi]

Yeah, exactly what is needed. A head coach named Malarkey. And assistants named April, McNutty and Conniving. You sure he didn't hire his law firm as assistant coaches?

[Carolina_Packer]

I think FA and then the subsequent dearth of quality talent knit together in one coherent story.

Unlike some positions (say 2 down RB), Tackle and other in demand positions always have fewer good starters than there is demand for. So when one hits FA, even with warts, he is bid into a higher pay scale than the talent market would otherwise demand. You are almost always paying a premium in March.

Why pay a premium for a replacement level guy? Michael Oher couldn't start any longer for the Ravens and one of the best O line coaches in the game couldn't make it work (Titans-Bob Bostad). Is he the reason Carolina is in the Super Bowl?

According to overthecap, here are Oher's figures: Total Value: $7,000,000 (avg. $3,500,000/year; $2,500,000 fully guaranteed) 23rd highest of 54 LT contracts

I'd say they are probably really happy with the production that they have gotten from him at $850K for this year. If they decide to cut him before June 1, they have 1.25 in dead money, but chances are they keep him since he's working out well, has come back from his toe injury (no small thing for a tackle, I'm sure).

If you were a team that is good with the cap like the Packers, would you have even considered offering Oher this kind of deal for two years to have veteran depth vs. ever having to put Don Barclay or Josh Walker in at LT because of injury?

It worked out for the Panthers, but of course they weren't using him as a backup, but the Packers sure could have used a guy like Oher when Bach, or even Bulaga went down.

[Joemailman]

I don't think the offensive line is where the Packers would need to sign a FA to plug a hole. That can be done through the draft. They've been pretty successful at getting rookies ready to start if needed (Bulaga, Bakhtiari, Linsley). TE and ILB are the areas where looking at free agency might be the way to go.

[woodbuck27]

Yeah, exactly what is needed. A head coach named Malarkey. And assistants named April, McNutty and Conniving. You sure he didn't hire his law firm as assistant coaches?

Maybe in the days he was hiring those fellas he was watching and inspired by a favourite movie of his:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Flew_Over_the_Cuckoo%27s_Nest_(film)

[Patler]

According to overthecap, here are Oher's figures: Total Value: $7,000,000 (avg. $3,500,000/year; $2,500,000 fully guaranteed) 23rd highest of 54 LT contracts

If you were a team that is good with the cap like the Packers, would you have even considered offering Oher this kind of deal for two years to have veteran depth vs. ever having to put Don Barclay or Josh Walker in at LT because of injury?

It worked out for the Panthers, but of course they weren't using him as a backup, but the Packers sure could have used a guy like Oher when Bach, or even Bulaga went down.

I think the bigger question, and one we can not answer, is would Oher even consider signing with a team that has two established starters, where he might not play all year? Didn't he sign a short term contract to prove himself and hopefully get another, bigger contract in two years as a legitimate NFL starter? If he signed with a team where he did not have a legitimate chance to start, isn't he killing his future chances? If you were his agent, would you advise him to take that type of deal from GB, knowing that Bakhtiari had not missed a game in his career, and Bulaga missed just one in 2014? A team with a starting line the staff seemed very happy with? I think I would have encouraged him to look for a team without a returning starter, or a team with a starter they were clearly unhappy with, even if he had to accept a somewhat inferior deal..

[yetisnowman]

This is pretty lame. A ten year veteran probably wouldn't be blocking on ST. Still if you want 48 receptions for 500 yards, I guess he's your guy. Oh wait, those are almost Identical numbers to Rodgers, and he didn't cost as much. So what was your point?

Good lord. I don't know how seriously Daniels was/wasn't pursued, but that doesn't change the fact he is far better than dick rod. He put up comparable numbers, with broken peyton, and a back up throwing to him. Not to mention Den has two other viable TEs on the roster. Try extrapolating when making uneven comparisons. Those two tds from Owen yesterday should singlehandedly silence any comparison. He's a true athlete.

[mraynrand]

Good lord. I don't know how seriously Daniels was/wasn't pursued, but that doesn't change the fact he is far better than dick rod. He put up comparable numbers, with broken peyton, and a back up throwing to him. Not to mention Den has two other viable TEs on the roster. Try extrapolating when making uneven comparisons. Those two tds from Owen yesterday should singlehandedly silence any comparison. He's a true athlete.

Davis is viable? I thought he passed away after running one route yesterday.

Daniels ran two pretty unremarkable routes on his TDs.

But I guess if you say Daniels is an athlete, it must be true. You've been right about everything else.

[woodbuck27]

Good lord. I don't know how seriously Daniels was/wasn't pursued, but that doesn't change the fact he is far better than dick rod. He put up comparable numbers, with broken peyton, and a back up throwing to him. Not to mention Den has two other viable TEs on the roster. Try extrapolating when making uneven comparisons. Those two tds from Owen yesterday should singlehandedly silence any comparison. He's a true athlete.

I was always impressed with his potential. I recall when Denver got him thinking Elway made a solid move.

TT can't see too far. His head and eyes ....his note pad.

If he didn't write that players name down 'first'.... on his pad ....he thinks.......he's not Packer people.