IS IT TIME TO PUT UNTOUCHABLE TED ON TRIAL ? HOW DO YOU GRADE HIM ??

[red]

I want to point out the "Bad" draft pick Marshall Newhouse is still starting in the NFL.

So either Ted is pretty good OR the rest of the League much more worse.

This is what gets me. I can look at Hyde and Hayward and say, ok, they got better after they left because capers sucks

But guys like Newhouse, Barclays, eds, and I want to say there’s another one. They were all terrible in Green Bay, but not only are they still playing, they’re starters. I’m pretty sure it’s not Caleb, cause he’s done wonders with a lot of other guys. So what gives with the o line?

Is it all just scheme? Or experience?

[Joemailman]

This is what gets me. I can look at Hyde and Hayward and say, ok, they got better after they left because capers sucks

But guys like Newhouse, Barclays, eds, and I want to say there’s another one. They were all terrible in Green Bay, but not only are they still playing, they’re starters. I’m pretty sure it’s not Caleb, cause he’s done wonders with a lot of other guys. So what gives with the o line?

Is it all just scheme? Or experience?

I think a lot of it is scheme. MM has always been reluctant to give OT's help. Max protection is something he really only did his first year here. If Barclay is playing OT on these other teams, I'll bet he's getting help against good pass rushers.

[pbmax]

This is what gets me. I can look at Hyde and Hayward and say, ok, they got better after they left because capers sucks

But guys like Newhouse, Barclays, eds, and I want to say there’s another one. They were all terrible in Green Bay, but not only are they still playing, they’re starters. I’m pretty sure it’s not Caleb, cause he’s done wonders with a lot of other guys. So what gives with the o line?

Is it all just scheme? Or experience?

Experience definitely helps.

But Newhouse and Hyde are still limited. Newhouse has spent as much time as a backup than as a starter. So he is better than a street FA but might not be better than your starter. Hyde is apparently playing his natural position of safety (whether or not he is deep or a SS is unknown to me) where speed is not as much of an issue. Its the role in his case. But remember, the Bills D has been getting worse rather than better with him there. And that is because the Bills are shedding other D talent. You lose pass rush, your pass D looks worse.

Newhouse was on a bad Giants O line and is now on an underperforming Oakland O line.

The problem with ishmael's list is that Ted doesn't pay average players to stay, but they do stay in the League. He just replaces them with cheaper, younger options.

[Carolina_Packer]

He was a bad pick for the Packers. He was terrible when he was here. Sorry, letting a player go that becomes great is a NEGATIVE for a org, not a positive.

Ish, he wasn't a bad pick, as much as he was needed before he was really developed as a player. That seems to happen with the Packers. Their guys get injured, and the guy behind him generally is green as grass and has a baptism by fire. It's not his fault the way TT constructs a roster. TT does have the option of making some of his immediate depth have more experience, but generally chooses not to.

I consider bad picks to be players who were over-drafted in a round higher than their eventual performance demonstrated. The safety McMillon from U of Maine. He was a classic bad pick. When Green Bay decided to cut ties before his first contract was up (in-season), and he did not make an impact elsewhere, that's bad. He was a 4th rounder if I recall correctly. For a draft and develop team, you can't afford too many of those. If McMillon was a late rounder, well, that's life.

[mraynrand]

Experience definitely helps.

But Newhouse and Hyde are still limited. Newhouse has spent as much time as a backup than as a starter. So he is better than a street FA but might not be better than your starter. Hyde is apparently playing his natural position of safety (whether or not he is deep or a SS is unknown to me) where speed is not as much of an issue. Its the role in his case. But remember, the Bills D has been getting worse rather than better with him there. And that is because the Bills are shedding other D talent. You lose pass rush, your pass D looks worse.

Newhouse was on a bad Giants O line and is now on an underperforming Oakland O line.

The problem with ishmael's list is that Ted doesn't pay average players to stay, but they do stay in the League. He just replaces them with cheaper, younger options.

Marshmallow Outhouse is barely stop gap. Right now he might on average get in the way of the defender better than say Spriggs but he’s reached his ceiling and it is ‘marginally serviceable backup’. Oakland suffers with him out there.

[call_me_ishmael]

Ish, he wasn't a bad pick, as much as he was needed before he was really developed as a player. That seems to happen with the Packers. Their guys get injured, and the guy behind him generally is green as grass and has a baptism by fire. It's not his fault the way TT constructs a roster. TT does have the option of making some of his immediate depth have more experience, but generally chooses not to.

I consider bad picks to be players who were over-drafted in a round higher than their eventual performance demonstrated. The safety McMillon from U of Maine. He was a classic bad pick. When Green Bay decided to cut ties before his first contract was up (in-season), and he did not make an impact elsewhere, that's bad. He was a 4th rounder if I recall correctly. For a draft and develop team, you can't afford too many of those. If McMillon was a late rounder, well, that's life.

Yeah, that's a fair take that I don't disagree with. I want to be clear: I am not in the "Ted needs to go NOW" club. I think his entire body of work is pretty good frankly. His early drafts were outstanding, and his most recent drafts appear to be very good too.

2011, 2012 and 2013 have really hurt this team and ultimately will impact Rodgers legacy. The players drafted those years should be core contributors and at their prime right now. Instead, we have one stud in Bahk, and a few decent players. Didn't Ted have some health problems in 2012 and 2013? I believe he had a confirmed hip replacement and I think there were many rumors of additional health problems. Those health problems, paired with McKenzie, Schneider and Dorsey leaving in a very amount of time, likely led to the bad drafts that leave the team without much depth or star power right now.

[mraynrand]

There was nothing All that wrong with the 2013 draft. They got a lot of starts out of 5 guys. There’s attrition there just because they can’t afford to keep everyone. And it hurts to have eddie get fat and lazy so soon, but they got a few good years out of him.

Bacteria is a total gem. When you can draft arguably the third most valuable player on your roster at a position like that it’s a huge score. You want all your picks to work out but it just doesn’t happen.

Because Jones was so meh and Lacy had a short career that draft gets a lower score but it was not bad.

[call_me_ishmael]

There was nothing All that wrong with the 2013 draft. They got a lot of starts out of 5 guys. There’s attrition there just because they can’t afford to keep everyone. And it hurts to have eddie get fat and lazy so soon, but they got a few good years out of him.

Bacteria is a total gem. When you can draft arguably the third most valuable player on your roster at a position like that it’s a huge score. You want all your picks to work out but it just doesn’t happen.

Because Jones was so meh and Lacy had a short career that draft gets a lower score but it was not bad.

I think Bakhtiari is the second most valuable Packer so no disagreement there.

I don't really get how you can say it's not bad. There was one player from it given a second contract by the team. He is a very good player.

Lacy was good and readily available for two years, but after that his carriers per game dwindled quickly and he was in the doghouse. 2015 was the year he was disciplined for being overweight, so year 3, and year 4 was basically injured the entire time. He has done nothing in Seattle. Is two years of production worth calling someone a good player? That's up for debate but he did not give the Packers a long term starting option or a second contract so I tend to say no I guess but it's not a definitive no.

Tretter was always injured and didn't earn/receive a second contract from GB. Of course he played 15 games this year so who knows if they made the right call or not.

Franklin's career was ended too early.

Hyde was a servicable player in GB but he didn't earn a second contract and people here ripped on him incessantly. I think he was better than most thought he was I perceive.

The rest are basically nobodies.

tl;dr
So if you look at the 2013-2015, 2013 draft was good in that it yielded Lacy, Bahk, Hyde as starters, where two were pretty good players. That would be an A grade. Unfortunately things unraveled as time went on and the draft looks worse and worse. This is a very unique draft in that sense I believe.

[mraynrand]

^ you don't always get a whole collection of starters from a draft for a variety of reasons. Sometimes guys like Tretter and Hyde play a lot of years for you, and sometimes they become expendable. It doesn't make them bad picks. Lacy was effective for big chunks of several years (get it, big chunks).

I've been saying this for years: go now and do a comparison with NE's drafts over the same period and see what you see. Or Oakland. Or Kansas City. Or your favorite GM. See how they did with every pick. You may be surprised at what you find.

[call_me_ishmael]

^ you don't always get a whole collection of starters from a draft for a variety of reasons. Sometimes guys like Tretter and Hyde play a lot of years for you, and sometimes they become expendable. It doesn't make them bad picks. Lacy was effective for big chunks of several years (get it, big chunks).

I've been saying this for years: go now and do a comparison with NE's drafts over the same period and see what you see. Or Oakland. Or Kansas City. Or your favorite GM. See how they did with every pick. You may be surprised at what you find.

But those teams are not afraid of free agency the way TT historically has been. NE has consistently added talent such that they are always among the most talented teams top-to-bottom. Same with KC. The Packers are lacking talent big time right now. They don't have a single difference maker beyond AR. NE has a great young receiver in Cooks, and a few studs in the secondary. Kansas City has a few defensive studs. Oakland has Kahlil Mack. Who do we have other than Rodgers? That's the point.

[mraynrand]

But those teams are not afraid of free agency the way TT historically has been. NE has consistently added talent such that they are always among the most talented teams top-to-bottom. Same with KC. The Packers are lacking talent big time right now. They don't have a single difference maker beyond AR. NE has a great young receiver in Cooks, and a few studs in the secondary. Kansas City has a few defensive studs. Oakland has Kahlil Mack. Who do we have other than Rodgers? That's the point.

You only came up with Cooks. OK, that was a good move by NE. Mack was a top draft pick - one of those freaks you get in the top 10. Packers don't have access to that except at a very steep cost. Where did K.C.'s defensive studs come from? Trade, FA or draft?

Next season, Packers could have a secondary with King, Randall, and Jones all playing at a high level. They need at least one difference maker in pass rush from end or LB. Unlikely it's Beigel or Fackrell, but who knows?

On offense they have the three running backs and Monty back. They need to find another playmaker.

Ted isn't afraid of FA - he just wants value. Maybe this year he adds a Woodson or Peppers.

So pass rush and receiver from the draft or FA and they could be right back at 12 plus wins. APRH

[bobblehead]

Sure, if you wish to call them that. I am being very fair to Ted. Look at the draft picks. 2011, 2012 and 2013 drafts are historically awful and show why this team is where they are. Contrast that with some of his earlier drafts like 2009, 2010 which were truly outstanding. My opinion is it's no coincidence that Ted has a hip replacement and other alleged health complicated in the 2011-2013 period (I think, anyway).

Here's 2011 to show how awful it was to go with the other recent drafts I showed. 2011-2014 players right now are the meat and potatoes of a 2017 roster, and the Packers picks were awful for three straight years before returning to a (probable) much better place.

2011 - One second contract as starter, one good. Draft grade is D or F due to 1 starter that earned a second contract as a good player
Sherrod - bad
Cobb - good
Green - bad
House - bad, gone, did not earn second contract in GB
Williams - bad
Schlauderaff - bad
Smith - bad
Elmore - bad
Taylor - bad
Guy - bad
McMillion - bad
Manning - bad
Datko - bad
Coleman - bad



For fun, here's 2010 which is very good.
2010: Very good draft, one of Ted's best. Neal was a decent player before he was blackballed. 3 starters earned second contracts, 2 are good players, 1 is average. Draft grade is A.
Bulaga - good
Neal - average
Burnett - good
Quarless - bad
Newhouse - bad
Starks - average
Wilson - bad

2009: Very good draft, possibly Ted's best. 3 good starters, A+.
Raji - good
Matthews - good
Lang - good
Johnson - bad
Wynn - bad
Underwood - bad
Jones - bad

2008: Very good draft, possibly Ted's best. 3 good starters, A+.
Nelson - good
Brohm - bad
Lee - bad
Finley - good
Thompson - Undetermined, injury retirement
Sitton - good
Giacomini - bad
Flynn - bad
Swain - bad

I don't have much time, but just to make a point. You label both Newhouse and Giacomini bad. They were what, 5th rounders? The 2 GM's you rate highly, Schneider and Mckenzie picked them up and started them for years....couldn't replace them with better players which ted did.

[Bretsky]

Partial....Kudos to you for going in so much detail and taking the time to do so in making a case

[mraynrand]

Partial....Kudos to you for going in so much detail and taking the time to do so in making a case

good
bad
bad
good
bad

[Bretsky]

well he puts in the effort with a lot of detail which takes more time than just ripping into things

I'd love to have somebody really dive into rounds one and two the last few years and break down a redraft sceanario given how players have developed

But stuff like that, and what partial did, takes time