Montgomery to Ravens

[pbmax]

When marginal starters like Hyde and Hayward leave and excel elsewhere, you have to look at the coaching. As in Capers. The logical conclusion woild be that MM kept Capers around too long. But I wonder if it's a coincidence that TT and Capers were shown the door at bazically the same time.

I don't have a good answer for the bad drafting.

But I thing I do think not forcing a decision on McCarthy about Capers sooner sits squarely on Thompson's shoulders. Whatever needed to happen on defense to utilize the talent on hand never developed.

McCarthy basically waiting until someone else got blamed and then performed the exorcism in the background.

[mraynrand]

When marginal starters like Hyde and Hayward leave and excel elsewhere, you have to look at the coaching.

I think generally people are making the wrong assumptions and drawing the wrong conclusions re: these two players. I'm repeating PBmax here but, WTH, why not: Hyde is no more special in Buffalo than in GB. He just got a collection of easy picks there. So far this year, he's been dead quiet - no INTs, 1 pass defensed, a few tackles/game. Hyde had a chance to win a playoff game here and cocked it up. He's no great shakes. Hayward is a fine player, but he was injured all the time. And he's having a quiet year too - only 2 more passes defensed than Hyde. Packers put their cash in Shields and got burned. TT's GM performance was declining (most likely health-related) and Capers' defensive schemes were not producing (most likely hair-related). Packers skill players on defense quit or declined (Raji, Matthews) were never that good (Perry) or never were (Datone Jones and 5-10 other picks). Capers probably was more scapegoated than anything else. Even fair coaches like him can't make a silk purse from Biegel's ears.

[Patler]

Thompson, like Wolf, has said final roster decisions were his, but he would not force players on the coach that the coach did not want. If TT did not think MM and his staff properly used the players they were given, he should have gotten rid of MM. Maybe that is where TT deserves criticism.

[hoosier]

Now i ain’t a fuckin Queen fan, but in my glorious youth, I saw plenty of Cris Carter sideline catches where the rock flew OB, but were ruled complete cos Carter had both feet inbounds.

Don't confuse the goal line with the side line.

[bobblehead]

When marginal starters like Hyde and Hayward leave and excel elsewhere, you have to look at the coaching. As in Capers. The logical conclusion woild be that MM kept Capers around too long. But I wonder if it's a coincidence that TT and Capers were shown the door at bazically the same time.

Was it capers or was it MM? I just saw them use House over Jackson earlier this year. Jackson still isn't seeing the field enough for my taste. All he has done is produce when he is on the field.

[bobblehead]

I think generally people are making the wrong assumptions and drawing the wrong conclusions re: these two players. I'm repeating PBmax here but, WTH, why not: Hyde is no more special in Buffalo than in GB. He just got a collection of easy picks there. So far this year, he's been dead quiet - no INTs, 1 pass defensed, a few tackles/game. Hyde had a chance to win a playoff game here and cocked it up. He's no great shakes. Hayward is a fine player, but he was injured all the time. And he's having a quiet year too - only 2 more passes defensed than Hyde. Packers put their cash in Shields and got burned. TT's GM performance was declining (most likely health-related) and Capers' defensive schemes were not producing (most likely hair-related). Packers skill players on defense quit or declined (Raji, Matthews) were never that good (Perry) or never were (Datone Jones and 5-10 other picks). Capers probably was more scapegoated than anything else. Even fair coaches like him can't make a silk purse from Biegel's ears.

And then he got another chance against Dallas.

[texaspackerbacker]

On and on about Capers - sheeesh! It was and still is a personnel problem, and that's squarely on Ted. Gutekunst is improving things, but it takes time. We are coming around to where we should be now at Corner. That just leaves most of the rest of the D as substandard.

Capers was swimming against the tide to compensate with his schemes. Pettine is no worse, but I don't see him as any better either.

[pbmax]

I think generally people are making the wrong assumptions and drawing the wrong conclusions re: these two players. I'm repeating PBmax here but, WTH, why not: Hyde is no more special in Buffalo than in GB. He just got a collection of easy picks there. So far this year, he's been dead quiet - no INTs, 1 pass defensed, a few tackles/game. Hyde had a chance to win a playoff game here and cocked it up. He's no great shakes. Hayward is a fine player, but he was injured all the time. And he's having a quiet year too - only 2 more passes defensed than Hyde. Packers put their cash in Shields and got burned. TT's GM performance was declining (most likely health-related) and Capers' defensive schemes were not producing (most likely hair-related). Packers skill players on defense quit or declined (Raji, Matthews) were never that good (Perry) or never were (Datone Jones and 5-10 other picks). Capers probably was more scapegoated than anything else. Even fair coaches like him can't make a silk purse from Biegel's ears.

I agree with my paraphrased self.

But there is also something to the notion that slightly above average players have a role in a defense. Everyone can't be a third or fourth round steal, a top pick or a highly compensated veteran. Sometimes you need the right fit for a decent to good player. I think the Packers are better today with these two than without, even if there were good reasons at the time to doubt it or not be able to afford it.

Perhaps the odd disconnect (beside Thompson and Capers/M3 about defensive personnel) is keeping vets who are really not worth the money. Did anyone benefit from Burnett keeping his job and losing Hyde? Red trashed Burnett regularly but his greatest talent probably revolved around playing near the LOS. A safety's greatest value is keeping a lid on big plays and Burnett wasn't even playing that position in his last couple of years.

Anyone think of any others in this vein? While they were contract committed to Shields, we knew he was collecting too many concussions when he signed.

[mraynrand]

^^ All of that is reasonable. My point is that losing these guys wasn't some epic fuckup. Things could have worked to better, but the team made reasonable moves, just not perfect moves. They'd be better off right now with Hyde, but they still need to be better at that spot than him and maybe for less cash (i.e. Jones needed to be an effective starter at this point).

[MadScientist]

On and on about Capers - sheeesh! It was and still is a personnel problem, and that's squarely on Ted. Gutekunst is improving things, but it takes time. We are coming around to where we should be now at Corner. That just leaves most of the rest of the D as substandard.

Capers was swimming against the tide to compensate with his schemes. Pettine is no worse, but I don't see him as any better either.

Capers was hamstrung by inferior personnel. However, his scheme was too well known and easily beaten at the end as well. Pettine has a somewhat improved secondary, but otherwise mostly the same players as Capers did. But there has at times some semblance of a pass rush this year. That's a clear improvement based solely on scheme. Better sack rate and better 3rd down stats make this year's defense much less frustrating than the defense of the previous couple of years.

[Fritz]

Capers was hamstrung by inferior personnel. However, his scheme was too well known and easily beaten at the end as well. Pettine has a somewhat improved secondary, but otherwise mostly the same players as Capers did. But there has at times some semblance of a pass rush this year. That's a clear improvement based solely on scheme. Better sack rate and better 3rd down stats make this year's defense much less frustrating than the defense of the previous couple of years.

This I agree with. It took several games for things to begin to work, but it looks like Pettine's not going to rush three and cross your fingers the QB can't find an open guy with 7 seconds to look around, ala Capers.

[mraynrand]

This I agree with. It took several games for things to begin to work, but it looks like Pettine's not going to rush three and cross your fingers the QB can't find an open guy with 7 seconds to look around, ala Capers.

Well, a lot of times Pettine is doing the opposite - bringing extra pressure and taking chances the coverage holds up just long enough and/or they affect the QB so he can't throw to the profoundly open guy sitting in the spot the pass rusher just vacated. It's all they can do, because they can barely generate any pass rush from the OLB position.

Was Capers long in the tooth and a bit predictable? Sure, but he also was playing at times with Gunter and Randall as his starting corners and having Hawkins and Martin Evans seeing significant PT.

The defense is thin and shallow rn, and has been for several years, following the 2014 mini-peak.

[Fritz]

Well, a lot of times Pettine is doing the opposite - bringing extra pressure and taking chances the coverage holds up just long enough and/or they affect the QB so he can't throw to the profoundly open guy sitting in the spot the pass rusher just vacated. It's all they can do, because they can barely generate any pass rush from the OLB position.

Was Capers long in the tooth and a bit predictable? Sure, but he also was playing at times with Gunter and Randall as his starting corners and having Hawkins and Martin Evans seeing significant PT.

The defense is thin and shallow rn, and has been for several years, following the 2014 mini-peak.

I don't disagree - it's just that I prefer a defensive coordinator rolling the dice by forcing the action.rather than sitting back and hoping the coverage works.

[pbmax]

I don't disagree - it's just that I prefer a defensive coordinator rolling the dice by forcing the action.rather than sitting back and hoping the coverage works.

Honestly, I don't remember this from Capers unless in was 3rd or 4th and 10 or more yards to go.

By the end, the guy was blitzing everything at times. I remember Cover 0 blitzes getting torched worse than 3 man rushes.

[mraynrand]

Honestly, I don't remember this from Capers unless in was 3rd or 4th and 10 or more yards to go.

By the end, the guy was blitzing everything at times. I remember Cover 0 blitzes getting torched worse than 3 man rushes.

Makes sense, since they had nothing left at corner. Remember that the only reason they didn't send Randall packing was because they had no one to play with any competency. Capers did get stale, but he ended on a double bad note because his personnel was sub par.