Vick goes to court today....

[GBRulz]

I agree with Ras, the Feds rarely indict someone without already having 99.9% of the evidence against them already. They aren't going to waste time and they certainly aren't going to fret about pressure from the NFL.

[MJZiggy]

Every locker room needs to take on a policy of not answering questions on this topic until after the trial--and then they need to take on a harsher policy of not answering questions about it.

I think in GB, the racial aspect of this trial is gonna be played less (at least until he gets cut) because Fergy is such a pit bull advocate

[GBRulz]

People don't care about Fergy in GB..

[MJZiggy]

I meant in the locker room...and BF4MVP does...so that's one.

[GBRulz]

no, that boy has finally wisened up about him.

Where the heck is BF4 anyhow? I miss that kid.

[Kiwon]

Ras, I'm just guessing, of course. I don't know if the NFL owners and execs are busy behind the scenes or not. But there are billions of dollars at stake every NFL season. Bad press and dissension among the players (their employees) are the last things that they would want. It would not surprise me at all if they were putting pressure on both sides to end it quickly.

This thing is a racial powder keg ready to go off. I think they realize that as do most in law enforcement, politics, civic activism, the media, etc. It's an issue ripe for manipulation by troublemakers. I think the federal prosecutors will take the concerns of the NFL (if expressed) into consideration.

Some issues are like kicking a hornet's nest. Most of us choose to leave it alone. Maybe it's time for a "knock down, drag out" on race in America but I, for one, am not looking forward to it.

It may not come to that, but from my vantage point, I see that it's unavoidable.

[Rastak]

Ras, I'm just guessing, of course. I don't know if the NFL owners and execs are busy behind the scenes or not. But there are billions of dollars at stake every NFL season. Bad press and dissension among the players (their employees) are the last things that they would want. It would not surprise me at all if they were putting pressure on both sides to end it quickly.

This thing is a racial powder keg ready to go off. I think they realize that as do most in law enforcement, politics, civic activism, the media, etc. It's an issue ripe for manipulation by troublemakers. I think the federal prosecutors will take the concerns of the NFL (if expressed) into consideration.

Some issues are like kicking a hornet's nest. Most of us choose to leave it alone. Maybe it's time for a "knock down, drag out" on race in America but I, for one, am not looking forward to it.

It may not come to that, but from my vantage point, I see that it's unavoidable.

Well, I think we may have to disagree a little. You have to be pretty hard core to dismiss killing dogs in the manner he's accused of. The zealots like you quoted in your other post are good examples. Mainstream isn't gonna support this guy. Maybe after all these years I'm still a bit stupid in such matters. You might be right. But right now, I don't sense a huge racial outcry in the US. When the details emerge at trail only the complete blockheads will stay to their story of injustice. And guess what, no matter WHAT the evidence or crime they'd be singing the same song too.


Take a look at your quote a couple posts back about somebody feels like they won one because a guy got away with a double murder....amazing stuff.

[Kiwon]

Ras, I'm usually an optimist, but O.J.'s trial was a reality check for me. Rational, thinking adults don't act like rational, thinking adults.

People like that guy REALLY don't care about two people bring murdered or dogs being tortured IF it threatens to invalidate their worldview of inequality and oppression. You're right, nothing is going to change their opinions. It's a message that they've heard all their lives and they believe it.

I guess our disagreement might be over whether that guy is the fringe or the mainstream. I'm sad to say it, but I think he represents the mainstream of Black Americans.

I wish I was wrong but I don't think so.

(Okay, I'm getting depressed. Vick and the boys are heartless hoods. They should be made to visit Ving Rhames' house and "play" with his three 200-pound bull mastiffs that killed someone today. I think some fear and a few dog bites would be the start of fitting justice for these guys.

However, they are legally innocent until proven otherwise in a court of law. An admission of guilt via a plea deal and limited jail time would not be equal justice to the crime but I'm speculating that many, including the NFL owners and execs, will push for this as the best course of action in order to avoid a worse problem. It's not right, but.....

I wish everyone would act like rational, thinking adults but they don't. It is depressing that full justice probably won't be served. I'm done discussing it for tonight. )

[oregonpackfan]

For everyone's concern, I hope that Vick gets his due process in court in a timely fashion. I would hate for this court proceeding to drag on and on.

[woodbuck27]

For everyone's concern, I hope that Vick gets his due process in court in a timely fashion. I would hate for this court proceeding to drag on and on.

This M. Vick story is getting nearly as much publicity up here as the Conrad Black trial did.

Abusing a dog in any manner seems to bear more heat than sposal abuse.

Buddy turned on him and the case is in order. I hope the NFL turns back on him and he's dirty dog done.

What an idiotic thing do get involved in with all the career he had.

It's a shame.

[Rastak]

For everyone's concern, I hope that Vick gets his due process in court in a timely fashion. I would hate for this court proceeding to drag on and on.

This M. Vick story is getting nearly as much publicity up here as the Conrad Black trial did.

Abusing a dog in any manner seems to bear more heat than sposal abuse.

Buddy turned on him and the case is in order. I hope the NFL turns back on him and he's dirty dog done.

What an idiotic thing do get involved in with all the career he had.

It's a shame.

Yea, that is crazy how a spouse almost does seem to rank lower. I think part of it is this. Guy comes home drunk, beats hell out of wife. Wife waits for guy to fall alseep, wife cuts off guy's dick or dumps a gallon of gas over his head then tosses her cig on it. Dog doesn't have any options. I'm not saying the dog is the worse crime either. I'm just saying dog is man's best friend and they have no options so people get real angry.

[MJZiggy]

You've hit it Rastak. We've bred dogs to be dependent on us. The dogs are penned in and can't just leave and I'm sure it wasn't a fair fight when they killed them either. Even setting aside a dog owners' visions of it being their beloved pet being abused, you still have to look at it as a helpless victim. This is also why crimes against children are so heinous (not comparing the two, obviously, but the reasoning is the same), because in both cases, the victims are helpless to defend themselves against the abuse.

[Rastak]

From PFT.com

Now they've canceled the QB challenge because dog face was in it...

POSTED 9:18 p.m. EDT, August 8, 2007

NFL CANCELS QUARTERBACK CHALLENGE AND NO ONE NOTICES

The National Football League pulled the plug on ESPN's broadcast of the 2007 Quarterback Challenge.

The show was supposed to air initially on Friday, August 3, and presumably would have been replayed more than Barry Bonds' 756th home (yawn) run. According to the Caymanian Compass, the NFL's decision arose from the involvement of Michael Vick in the competition that was conducted on May 19, less than a month after dogs and dog-fighting equipment were removed from Vick's secluded Virginia property.

The Cayman Islands Department of Tourism was informed of the decision by the NFL on July 30.

The move isn't surprising. What is surprising to us is that no one noticed.

We heard in May that Josh McCown of the Raiders won the competition.

[Terry]

It's not that a spouse is ranked lower than a dog, it's that spousal abuse is ranked lower than the crime under discussion here. And I don't think it's so crazy. The thing is, that if a spouse is doused with water and electricuted, or bashed against a wall until dead, we view it pretty damned seriously. If it was a regular occurrence going on under our noses, supported in full by a segment of our society, it would rise in "ranking" pretty damned quickly. Families of victims would be out in droves with chainsaws and baseball bats and the carnage that would ensue would be viewed as understandable by a large number of us. If people go out now and bash dog fighters to death, we'd be appalled.

Furthermore, even those of us who eat cows and pigs regularly (including myself), I suspect we are deeply threatened by the mentality of the utter absence of compassion in a person who could perpetrate such terrible things upon such a beloved animal. I think we suspect that that same person in another place and time would be pouring in the Zyklon-B into rooms filled with human beings, without a second thought. Whether we judge that one crime is more heinous than the other is irrelevant, because I think we viscerally see both people as strikingly similar. There have been cases of serial killers of children who tortured their prey prior to murder and we are all so appalled that an out and out murder of the perps would not be condemned by the public - especially in the British case of Ian Brady & Myra Hindley, who actually recorded their sessions with the victimes.

Anyway, I have a few thoughts about this 'issue'. Scattered thoughts, I suppose.

Firstly, I love animals, dogs especially. I have absolutely zero tolerance for blatant cruelty. I remember a comment made elsewhere from someone who thought it was pretty bad, but that six years is a bit stiff - after all, he said, they are dogs. Well, overall, I'm not big on huge sentences, but in the context of American sentencing, I personally think six years is pretty light, comparatively speaking. As I read what I've learned in this thread, I'm more horrified than ever - Vick is in up to his eyeballs. I didn't know he owned a breeding license, for instance, when I read that he had promised the NFL commissioner that it was his property but that he was never there (and in subsequent statements, he used that word - "never" - also - his legal team changed it to "rarely") and he had no idea of what was going on. I didn't know a lot of things.

However, for all that, I still believe in due process and the presumption of innocence. For that reason, I wish animal groups would stay the hell away from the courthouse, at least those who wish to vilify Vick (I do think it's a great opportunity for and ASPCA and others to use the publicity to make serious headway on combating this sport). And I especially think - given that Vick, to my knowledge, has no previous record - that the NFL had no right to forbid him to attend training camp. Now, look, I'm not a complete dope (whatever the appearances) and I know the NFL would have such a PR nightmare on their hands if Vick was practicing or playing (not that he would have time) & that it could wreak havoc on the season. But they should have found a way to separate the NFL from Vick without a suspension and with an explicit statement that the situation came about with Vick's agreement for exactly those reasons, but that the NFL remains firmly behind him prior to court judgment, that he is a member in good standing, blah, blah, blah, maybe even saying that Vick decided to take a sabbatical pending the outcome of the case, with full pay. Well, ok, you work out the details, but I think you get my drift. At worst, the NFL should have kept its mouth shut and just say that whatever arrangement the Falcons make with their players is their business. Just because comment is demanded does not mean it has to be given.

Beyond that, I think the NAACP should mind their own business - I'm sure if a white public figure was brought up on charges for such a crime, the NAACP would not be out there offering their support to the charged. Their business is not about dog fighting. And if I wish that PETA would seek their publicity elsewhere than outside of the courtroom and carefully avoid demonstrations of specifically aimed hatred, then that goes triple for the NAACP.

I just hope the judge is a strict constitutionalist AND a very, very avid lover of dogs both.

[Rastak]

From PFT:



CLEARLY, VICK DID IT

As the sports world continues to get its arms around Monday's surprising news that Mike Vick's two remaining co-defendants are going to plead guilty to charges that they conspired with Vick to maintain an interstate gambling enterprise and an interstate dog-fighting operation, we think it's time to apply some common sense to the current state of affairs.

Throw the presumption of innocence out the window, folks. Clearly, Vick is factually guilty of the charges filed against him. Why else would each of the three men with whom he allegedly conspired admit that there was a conspiracy?

Each of the three men will go to jail. The only benefit that they'll derive from their decision to 'fess up is that they'll avoid being charged with the underlying crimes, which in the case of the interstate gambling enterprise carries a far stiffer maximum penalty.

And now Vick must ask himself whether he wants to take advantage of that same benefit. He can plead guilty to conspiracy charges and hope for the best when it comes to sentencing, or he can roll the dice and hope that his lawyer can discredit seven witnesses (and counting), each of whom will presumably testify that Vick was involved in the gambling and dog-fighting venture.

The fact that Vick is reportedly contemplating his options reinforces our belief that Vick is by no means innocent. Innocent men don't ponder pleading guilty; they proclaim their innocence in clear, certain terms and they prepare to prove their innocence in court.

Per ESPN, if Vick doesn't plead guilty to the conspiracy charges by Friday, a new indictment with at least two new dog fighting charges will be filed. We believe that the new indictment will likely also include a count based on Title 18, Section 1952 of the U.S. Code, which is titled "Interstate or foreign trade or travel in aid of racketeering enterprises," and which carries a maximum penalty is 20 years behind bars.

It is a tremendous dilemma for Vick. The man who has spent his life escaping with ease from difficult situations is now backed into a corner. One option means certain imprisonment for a relatively short period of time. The other option means a strong likelihood, but not a certainty, of an even longer period behind bars.

Vick might be inclined not to plead guilty because to do so would likely end his NFL career permanently, but even an acquittal at this point won't be enough to get Vick back inside a shirt with the shield at the bottom of the collar. We've said all along that Vick will have a chance at returning to the NFL only if there is Duke lacrosse-style evidence that fully exonerates him. With Purnell Peace and Quanis Phillips pleading guilty as charged, that's simply not going to happen.

So we think Vick's best bet is to plead guilty, bid farewell to the NFL, do his time quickly and quietly, and then return to the CFL or the UFL or whatever other FL is out there when he gets out.

And, if all else fails, there's always pro wrestling.

UPDATE: ESPN's Kelly Naqi just said on SportsCenter that if Vick doesn't plead guilty to pending charges by Friday he'll face at least two new counts for "felony dog fighting." But dog fighting didn't become a felony under federal law until a couple of weeks after the initial search of Vick's property in Virginia. Under federal law, it was a misdemeanor at the time Vick was allegedly engaged in it. And ESPN continues to ignore the gambling aspect of these charges.