THIS is who ICE throws out of the country first?

[Harlan Huckleby]

During the periods of 1925 and 1965, before the immigration bill of 1965 was passed, we actually had a net emigration period OUT of the United States. Gee genius, I wonder who picked our crops, I wonder who cleaned our houses, I wonder who landscaped our yards. Hmmm, maybe WE did? Just like we always have.

We had larger families between 25-65, and a FAR smaller middle class. Plenty of young people, plenty of desperate people, lots of cheap labor. Times have changed, amigo.

You see Americans will do the jobs that Illegals do, because we always have, however we won't do jobs Illegals do for that wage, because it is self deprivation allowing yourself to be exploited like that by the corporations that hire illegals.

The likely result of kicking the illegals out would be depression. Look at what is happenned in Arizona after they made a MODEST attempt to eliminate illegals. They had to write loopholes back into their laws, and the economic impact was very negative.

I understand your theory, it is just unhinged from reality.

You make references to our ancestors who came here legally. Well, most came over before we even had immigration laws to restrict numbers.

The real problem is that our LEGAL immigration has only been at symbolic levels. Virtually all the immigrants who have come here the last 30 years have found employment.

I know you aren't going to change your mind. But your extreme views are really irrelevant.

We need to stop illegal immigration. But we also have to accept a large number of people who have come here the last 30 years as citizens. It is a complicated issue, nothing like the simple-minded model you have in your head.

[Scott Campbell]

Why are you telling me this? Is it because you are trying to gain ethical appeal? I told you this isn't a race issue.

Ethical appeal???

[Harlan Huckleby]

Why are you telling me this? Is it because you are trying to gain ethical appeal? I told you this isn't a race issue.

Ethical appeal???

Actually I think it IS a race issue. I don't like having people like Madtown in our midst any more than TheCheese. Why, just two weeks ago I discovered that my ex-wife is balling a mexican. Deeply disturbing.

[Scott Campbell]

Why are you telling me this? Is it because you are trying to gain ethical appeal? I told you this isn't a race issue.

Ethical appeal???

Actually I think it IS a race issue. I don't like having people like Madtown in our midst any more than TheCheese. Why, just two weeks ago I discovered that my ex-wife is balling a mexican. Deeply disturbing.

So Mad is doing your ex-forum, and his cousin is doing your ex-wife. I can see why you might have some race issues.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

convincing argument^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Not really. It has so many holes in it i could drive a truck through it.

Since, i know my friends will ask, "tyrone, your full of it, which part is not true?" i'll just address one.

First, i country isn't different today. We do need low skilled labor. The argument is so ludicrous that it defeats itself. If we didnt' need those illegal, low skilled mexicans..why are they here? Surely they couldn't find work.

The simple fact is that we need them. Our service industry depends on them, as does agriculture. It ain't white folks picking veggies..i guarantee you that.

And, if they weren't needed..you think a bunch of white folks would hire them. They are hired because they are needed.

And, btw illegals do pay taxes. This is the biggest canard of them all. They pay payroll taxes (i.e. FICA and Medicare) using either an invalid Social Security number or a Tax Identification Number (TIN), and empirical evidence tends to show that a large fraction of the economic incidence of these taxes falls on workers.

Since 1986, when the Immigration Reform and Control Act set penalties for employers who knowingly hire illegal immigrants, most such workers have been forced to buy fake ID's to get a job.

Some of these same individuals also pay income taxes, assuming their reported adjusted gross incomes are high enough to where they actually have a positive liability.

But even if one is paid “under the table” where neither the employer nor employee report the income to the IRS, other taxes are paid by illegal immigrants. This would include mainly sales taxes on items purchased in most states and localities.

And, let's not forget that many illegals pay into social security and will never receive that benefit (not saying they should). The extent of their contributions to Social Security is striking: the money added up to about 10 percent of last year's surplus - the difference between what the system currently receives in payroll taxes and what it doles out in pension benefits. Moreover, the money paid by illegal workers and their employers is factored into all the Social Security Administration's projections.

While some argue that illegal immigrants do not pay their fair share of taxes compared to the value of government services they receive, this is partially a normative question that needs to be accompanied by more empirical evidence to support or refute. But to answer the question, "Do illegal immigrants pay any taxes?" the answer is clearly yes.

Wow, your inaccurate, foolish, almost corrupt point of view really just pissed me off. This is why we have such a serious fucking problem because people like you don't actually thoroughly analyze the grand scheme of things and understand why things work the way they work and just speak out solely for the purpose or the attention, hoping no one calls you out on your amazingly large steaming pile of dog shit you call an argument. I recommend you really take some time and study the subject rather than rehash boring, old generic, devil's advocate points of view that your non-conformist hippy parents brain washed your mind with.

And do yourself a favor and re read my post, this time carefully, and if you did read the whole thing, this is the best you got? To argue with me something I never actually stated? How sad. I never said they didn't pay taxes, I said they didn't pay the right taxes, which includes all the taxes you, me and everyone else is paying. Everyone knows illegals pay some taxes, way to go on wasting time and space on this thread.

Now lets shoot down your pathetic, elementary attempt at an actual argument. Pay attention now.

You say that we need Illegal immigrants to do the ever so shrinking low labor jobs of America. We need them? We can't live without them? What the fuck kind of absurd, down right ridiculous point of view is this? During the periods of 1925 and 1965, before the immigration bill of 1965 was passed, we actually had a net emigration period OUT of the United States. Gee genius, I wonder who picked our crops, I wonder who cleaned our houses, I wonder who landscaped our yards. Hmmm, maybe WE did? Just like we always have.

You see Americans will do the jobs that Illegals do, because we always have, however we won't do jobs Illegals do for that wage, because it is self deprivation allowing yourself to be exploited like that by the corporations that hire illegals. Do you understand? I hope you do, because I enjoy educating our youth. Now lets say what the impact would be if we cracked down on our corporations from hiring Illegals. Well they would have to pay Americans a fair wage to do the job, which means more taxes would be paid from a legit, authorized check, our own people would be netting more income, therefore spending more money on our economy, not Mexico's. All this for paying maybe a buck or too more for produce products. Gee what a concept isn't it? On to your next joke.

Going back to you saying they do pay some taxes, we both stipulate on this postulation. However, what I find truly grotesque is that you defended Illegals saying they do pay taxes because some of them obtain fraudulent social security numbers. Well holy shit Maverick I wonder where they get these numbers. They Steal them from us ! Or even worse, they take their anchor babies SSN and use it, fuck up the credit, then that kid's credit is fucked up for life. How the fuck is this ok? How can you defend this? Answer my questions, maybe theres something I'm missing or you're just fucking with us and joking around because any logical thinking person in their right mind would not think this is ok, under any circumstances what so ever.

Oh by the way, it is a fact that the little amount of taxes they do pay does not equal near the amount of government services they use such as medical expenses, WIC, welfare, education, not to mention all the car accidents and property damage because they don't have insurance. Oh and for your "partially normative question," according to the Census Bureau data, the average illegal immigrant family uses $2,700/year more in services than it pays in taxes. In 2002, this led to a $10.4 billion deficit on the federal budget. Now what in the hell is so normative about that? That was in 2002 mind you, and it's only gotten exponentially worse. You do the math, and make a proper objective opinion on it and not argue with me just to not lose, you already lost and the more i type the more ridiculous you look.

Now I just systematically destroyed your argument with logic and facts. And not one part of your post the whole thing. If you do respond to this, I expect for you to thank me for further informing and educating on this subject that is so close to the heart of many Americans. Seriously, come at me with facts and logic next time, not a on the spot thought up spew of bull shit that is easily shot down by facts. Oh and speaking of statistics, heres a little more from the 2006 1st quarter INS/FBI Statistical Report, that focus on illegal immigrants in general.




“12 Americans are murdered every day by illegal aliens. (that’s more than 21,900 murders by illegal aliens since September 11, 2001)

13 people per day are killed by illegal immigrants who drive under the influence of drugs or alcohol. An additional 4,745 premature deaths per year.

62% of all “undocumented immigrants” in the United States are working for cash and not paying taxes, predominantly illegal aliens, working without a green card.

95% of warrants for murder in Los Angeles are for illegal aliens.

83% of warrants for murder in Phoenix are for illegal aliens.

86% of warrants for murder in Albuquerque are for illegal aliens.

75% of people on the most wanted list in Los Angeles, Phoenix, and Albuquerque are illegal aliens.

More than 380,000 “anchor babies” born in the United States in 2005 were to parents who are illegal aliens; making those 380,000 babies automatically U.S. citizens. 97.2% of all costs incurred from those births were paid by the American taxpayer.

More than 66% of all births in California are to illegal alien Mexicans on Medi-Cal, whose births were paid for by taxpayers.

24.9% of all inmates in California detention centers are Mexican nationals here illegally.

40.1% of all inmates in Arizona detention centers are Mexican nationals here illegally.

48.2% of all inmates in New Mexico detention centers are Mexican nationals here illegally.

29% (630,000) of the inmates in all state and federal prisons are illegal aliens—at a cost of $1.6 billion annually.

More than 53% of all investigated burglaries reported in California, New Mexico, Nevada, Arizona, and Texas are perpetrated by illegal aliens.

More than half of all gang members in Los Angeles are illegal aliens from south of the border.

More than 43% of all Food Stamps issued are to illegal aliens.

More than 41% of all unemployment checks issued in the United States are to illegal aliens.

58% of all welfare payments in the United States are issued to illegal aliens.

Nearly 60% of all occupants of HUD properties in the United States are illegal aliens.

14 out of 31 TV stations in L.A. are Spanish-only.

16 out of 28 TV stations in Phoenix are Spanish only.

15 out of 24 TV stations in Albuquerque are Spanish-only.

More than 34% of Arizona students in grades 1-12 are illegal aliens.

More than 24% of Arizona students in grades 1-12 are non-English speaking.

More than 39% of California students in grades 1-12 are illegal aliens.

More than 42% of California students in grades 1-12 are non-English speaking.

In Los Angeles County, 5.1 million people speak English and 3.9 million speak Spanish.

More than 71% of all apprehended cars stolen in 2005 in Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, Nevada, and California were stolen by illegal aliens or transport “coyotes.”

47% of cited/stopped drivers in California have no license, no insurance, and no registration for the vehicle. Of that 47%, 92% are illegal aliens.

63% of cited/stopped drivers in Arizona have no license, no insurance, and no registration for the vehicle. Of that 63%, 97% are illegal aliens.

66% of cited/stopped drivers in New Mexico have no license, no insurance, and no registration for the vehicle. Of that 66%, 98% are illegal aliens.

Less than 2% of illegal aliens in the United States are picking crops, but 41% are on welfare.

Over 70% of the United States annual population growth (and over 90% of California, Florida, and New York) results from illegal immigration, at a cost of nearly $68,000,000,000.00 annually.”

Dude, before you start calling someone foolish and inaccurate, look in the mirror.

Second, instead of calling my points generic..take a look at yours. And, btw, my parents are far from hippies...as they display many a crystal elephant garnered from donations to the republican party.

Must gall you to acknowledge that some people can think for themselves and actually come to conclusions differing from yours.

1. Please try using some references when making statements like we had net loss regarding emigration. Otherwise it is just talk. Which until i see evidence, i dont' believe.

2. Only idiots try to compare 1965 to today. Wow. You think that losing an exploited class like blacks might have something to do with our situation now. Or that we are more urbanized.

3. Right we did. But, we dont' wanna do it anymore. Back then we had 1 person working. Dope. Now we have 2 working parent families.

Society has changed.

4. Fair wage. Ah, now you've stumbled onto something. But, do you think companies want to do that? LOL If they did, they would hire americans at a higher wage and not hire illegals. I don't remember anyone holding a gun to their throat and forcing them to hire illegals.

I also know that you and the rest of this country likes their prices low. You really think this country wants to pay higher prices. Right.

We aren't talking produce, idiot. Try factories, try the housing market, try carpentry, plumbing, etc.

5. Keep your racist shit to yourself. You prove your racism by listing the tv stations. Who cares. That is the free market. It isn't a law that you have to speak english in this country. And, if there is a market, serve it.

[TheCheese]

Funny stuff. So because the native Americans didn't have laws against Europeans migrating here, that makes it legal?

Is that a serious question? Wow. There wasn't even a country back then to have laws at that time. Try to get a little more effective analogy to defeat my argument.

By that fucking genius logic, all Mexicans should be legals. Who do you think populated the entirety of the southwestern US before we got here? Just because we drew a fucking line and said "this is where our shit ends" that makes it right?

First of all, what the fuck kind of shit is this? Did you not understand my posts? I'm not talking about the fucking people who were here hundreds of years ago. I'm talking about the illegal aliens coming over right now, it's wrong. Seriously why the fuck is this so hard to understand? Oh and by the way little buddy, what is your methods to define a country? Since you obviously don't understand the concept of "borders," I'm curious to see your thought process.

[TheCheese]

During the periods of 1925 and 1965, before the immigration bill of 1965 was passed, we actually had a net emigration period OUT of the United States. Gee genius, I wonder who picked our crops, I wonder who cleaned our houses, I wonder who landscaped our yards. Hmmm, maybe WE did? Just like we always have.

We had larger families between 25-65, and a FAR smaller middle class. Plenty of young people, plenty of desperate people, lots of cheap labor. Times have changed, amigo.

So you're saying if we didn't have any Illegal immigrants, our low skilled labor would never get done? We became dependent on the cheap labor out of preference, not necessity.

You see Americans will do the jobs that Illegals do, because we always have, however we won't do jobs Illegals do for that wage, because it is self deprivation allowing yourself to be exploited like that by the corporations that hire illegals.

The likely result of kicking the illegals out would be depression. Look at what is happenned in Arizona after they made a MODEST attempt to eliminate illegals. They had to write loopholes back into their laws, and the economic impact was very negative.

What loop holes are you talking about? Obviously mass deportation of every single illegal is unrealistic, however deportation of the ones easily removed, especially the repeat criminals should be common sense. Upholding our laws that is in America's best interest is a good thing, not a bad thing.

I understand your theory, it is just unhinged from reality.

You make references to our ancestors who came here legally. Well, most came over before we even had immigration laws to restrict numbers.

Exactly, as stated before in my posts, in the early stages of our country, immigration was encouraged, we needed it. However, as you just stated, "times have changed, amigo." We are not that same country and we cannot economically support mass infusion of illegal immigrants. It is a drain on our economy; it's been proven. We have our own poor in this country to worry about, let alone another country's.

The real problem is that our LEGAL immigration has only been at symbolic levels. Virtually all the immigrants who have come here the last 30 years have found employment.

Could you elaborate further on this please? Are you talking about all immigrants legal and illegal? If so, why does this change the fact that we have to stop illegal immigration today? It's bad right now and only going to get worse.

I know you aren't going to change your mind. But your extreme views are really irrelevant.

First of all, how are my views extreme? And how are they irrelevant? I had no idea, trying to uphold the law, especially something that is so economic and culture significant to us is extreme.

We need to stop illegal immigration. But we also have to accept a large number of people who have come here the last 30 years as citizens. It is a complicated issue, nothing like the simple-minded model you have in your head.

So to sum it up, you are against illegal immigration, but pro amnesty. Wow where have I heard this before. Yep, the last amnesty was a great success.

[TheCheese]

Why are you telling me this? Is it because you are trying to gain ethical appeal? I told you this isn't a race issue.

Ethical appeal???





Ethical Appeal (ethos)
Ethical appeal is used to establish the writer as fair, open-minded, honest, and knowledgeable about the subject matter. The writer creates a sense of him or herself as trustworthy and credible.

[TheCheese]

Dude, before you start calling someone foolish and inaccurate, look in the mirror.

Second, instead of calling my points generic..take a look at yours. And, btw, my parents are far from hippies...as they display many a crystal elephant garnered from donations to the republican party.

Must gall you to acknowledge that some people can think for themselves and actually come to conclusions differing from yours.

Alright than, feel better? Lets move onto the subject.

1. Please try using some references when making statements like we had net loss regarding emigration. Otherwise it is just talk. Which until i see evidence, i dont' believe.

First, do some homework, then you will believe, thats the problem you and me are having here. Second, I list a shit load of statistics that were cited that you won't even talk about, but you bitch about the one that is common sense without the cite? Sounds a little nit-picky to me.

2. Only idiots try to compare 1965 to today. Wow. You think that losing an exploited class like blacks might have something to do with our situation now. Or that we are more urbanized.

What in the fuck are you talking about?

3. Right we did. But, we dont' wanna do it anymore. Back then we had 1 person working. Dope. Now we have 2 working parent families.

Society has changed.

I thought only idiots compared the time today to the time of the past. Please stop contradicting yourself, it really is quite annoying. Unless you admit that your an idiot, in which case carry on.

4. Fair wage. Ah, now you've stumbled onto something. But, do you think companies want to do that? LOL If they did, they would hire americans at a higher wage and not hire illegals. I don't remember anyone holding a gun to their throat and forcing them to hire illegals.

I also know that you and the rest of this country likes their prices low. You really think this country wants to pay higher prices. Right.

We aren't talking produce, idiot. Try factories, try the housing market, try carpentry, plumbing, etc.

You miss the point once again, goodness this is getting tiresome. What would the companies hire if there was no illegals to hire? Ahh do you get it now? Even if there are illegals to hire, if we crack down on those companies like we should, they will be forced to hire the Americans. If I gotta pay a little higher prices to help the country and economy out significantly, then so be it. I, just as millions of Americans, would be proud to do this. We would get that money back in other areas from the lack of economic drain illegals put on our economy. Is this concept getting through your thick head you dumb ass?

5. Keep your racist shit to yourself. You prove your racism by listing the tv stations. Who cares. That is the free market. It isn't a law that you have to speak english in this country. And, if there is a market, serve it.

Ahh finally you get to throw the racist card you ignorant fool. Once again, this has nothing to do with race. Do you think Mexicans are the only people on the planet that speak Spanish? Did you know millions of Africans in Africa speak French? Do you understand that language has nothing to do with race? Or is it that your mind can't comprehend the complexity of this issue, that you just throw the racism shit out of no where to compensate this. I didn't put those stats of the tv stations in there, I posted the article as a whole. For the last time, leave race out of this.

[Harlan Huckleby]

So to sum it up, you are against illegal immigration, but pro amnesty. Wow where have I heard this before. Yep, the last amnesty was a great success.

Its true that many of the Mexicans and South Americans broke laws entering the country. But I don't think they did ANYTHING morally wrong, I have no problem with them as individuals. They are just surviving.

I think the talk of amnesty, and legal versus illegal is just a cover for the underlying issue. After all, if your real problem is with the illegality, an amnesty removes that barrior, puff, they're legal and you can love them.

Almost everybody agrees we should not have illegal immigration, it would be much better to control the flow. The point of contention is whether we want large numbers of new immigrants here in the country.

You evidently don't want them. I say bring 'um on, welcome aboard. Certainly the numbers that are already here are just fine.

[MadtownPacker]

Why are you telling me this? Is it because you are trying to gain ethical appeal? I told you this isn't a race issue.

Ethical appeal???





Ethical Appeal (ethos)
Ethical appeal is used to establish the writer as fair, open-minded, honest, and knowledgeable about the subject matter. The writer creates a sense of him or herself as trustworthy and credible.

I kjnow this is what you meant and that is why I laughed my BROWN ass off.

This might be the only time in my life that not being white has worked in my favor.

[texaspackerbacker]

OK, Harlan and I have gone round and round on this, and I know he has this "morality" thing about what he calls "taking advantage" and I call "a mutually advantageous situation". I want to hear Madtown's perspective on this, and I also want to hear Cheese's perspective as a hardcore anti-illegal immigration person.

My position is to do our best to close the border with a fence, a virtual fence, beefed up Border Patrol, whatever. I'm not arguing the feasibility or effectiveness of that here.

The main point of contention, however, would be this: I OPPOSE amnesty on the grounds that in addition to rewarding the illegality of their entry, MAKING THEM LEGAL WOULD MAKE IT MUCH LESS LIKELY THAT THEY WOULD WORK CHEAP AND DO THE JOBS OTHERS DON'T WANT TO DO FOR LOW PAY. I would NOT make an effort to send back any illegals other than those arrested for secondary crimes.

I call this MUTUALLY ADVANTAGEOUS because America continues to get the benefit of the cheap labor, and the illegals get the benefit of making significantly more money and living in significantly better conditions than they would in Mexico or wherever else.

Mad and Cheese, what say you? Harlan, I already know you don't like it.

[Scott Campbell]

Why are you telling me this? Is it because you are trying to gain ethical appeal? I told you this isn't a race issue.

Ethical appeal???





Ethical Appeal (ethos)
Ethical appeal is used to establish the writer as fair, open-minded, honest, and knowledgeable about the subject matter. The writer creates a sense of him or herself as trustworthy and credible.

My apologies. I thought you meant to say ethnic appeal. It's not the first time I've been wrong, and won't be the last.

[MadtownPacker]

Mad and Cheese, what say you? Harlan, I already know you don't like it.

I agree the flow needs to be controlled but it should not be stopped. I also believe that current HARD WORKING illegals who arent involved in any bullshit should continue on but be documented and given a legal alien social security type number. They should have to pay taxes. No claiming kids that dont exist. They should only be eligible for welfare or assistance programs for no longer than 6 months lifetime. Breaking a significant law should mean deportation and blacklisted.

For all this shit and more to happen it will take alot of people keeping track of everything. I agree with the idea of the border fence I just don't think it will really stop anything. Why bother trying to stop people from getting in when they can easily just be found here. They aint gonna be hiding in caves. Most people can take you to someone who is here illegally no matter what state you live in. Just give everyone 3 months to apply. They pass they stay they don't they go. They don't get the same rights Americans do until they pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America.

[TheCheese]

Well Texas it is an interesting proposition, however I think it sends the wrong message to just turn the other cheek with the illegals we have here now. I understand what you are saying, however, economically it still wouldn't be in our best interest due to them not paying the taxes they should be paying, i.e., using more services than they pay into. That is my main concern. If amnesty was granted, they would be able to pay more taxes, however we would hit a huge inflation mark like we have before, that is where it gets complicated. Also like you stated it is wrong to grant them a free pass with amnesty by rewarding them for their illegal entry.

Some of Mad's ideas on this topic I actually agree with.

In an ideal world that you proposed, one in which the border is successfully secured and no more illegals are passing through, would give us an advantage to turn our attention to illegals on our streets. Like i said before mass deportation is unrealistic, however finding illegals as Mad has stated is a very easy thing to do.

I believe we look at as many illegals as possible case by case, the ones without children here, or heavily family tied, should be deported, as well as any criminals, as fast as possible. This leaves the illegals here with mainly children to take care of that can't be left stranded. Then these illegals should have to apply for documentation, NOT citizenship. This documentation would basically make it so they are paying just as much taxes as we are, however they are only eligible for very little government programs similar to what Mad proposed. They have less rights, no right to vote and also a time limit in which they have to enter a more intensive citizenship application process. This process would require that they learn basic English skills, and learn the history of the United States and the culture of Americans on their own time and money. After paying a steep initial "down payment" to take the test, if they successfully pass it, they will be granted full citizenship in around the time of 5 years. If they fail, they are deported.

What this does is, basically makes it the ideal middle ground of amnesty, and mass deportation. As you stated with the border fully secure, this process would be one of better options. It weeds out the illegals trying to take advantage of the system/ criminals however at the same time, makes it very difficult for the illegals to stay here, however the ones who truly want the better life and truly want to become American, will make it happen. This in turn does not necessary reward the illegals for coming over here illegally, for they end up paying more for less in the short term, however in the long term benefits everyone, including the illegals, and most of all is in our economic best interest.