THIS is who ICE throws out of the country first?

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Gunakor..i totally agree. But, that was the point. We now find conservatives that are shocked and would like this person to remain.

Conservatives are monolothic..at least the human ones..can't speak about Tex.

The point is that when it suits them they want the spirit, not the letter. This is a case of that.

I have respect for Numb who at least posts..the law is the law. That is a defensible position. I have no respect for those who decry liberal actavist judges and then cry about trajedies like this young girl.

My point, in the comment on the original post, is to question the inactivity of our state's senators. Taking sides in this case would seem to be the right thing to do. Activist judges are welcome to help out here as well. So far we haven't heard from them either.

One can easily say that the writing or enforcement of immigration law is a conservative thing, and not a liberal thing. And come to think of it, I wish you would. Immigration issues are evolving, and so the law must evolve. Harlan is fond of saying a fence will not help keep out illegal immigrants. In a way he is right. It will keep out the illegal immigrants that create a nuisance for border communities. It won't help with overstayed visas I suppose, a more typical entree for an illegal.

I really do wonder at the underlying issue with ICE that makes their officers act like pissed-off DMV clerks instead of professionals with some discretion in the actions they take.

I will now predict the responses.

First the Crackhead...got it. That was easy.

Now Blue Dawg...always a little harder...okay there it is.

Unfortunately for you, you are as good at prognosticating as you think.

Tyrone lives in a border state and deals with these sad stories weekly. While it may come as a surprise to you..it is a weekly occurence in AZ.

Wonder: Very simple. Petty beaurocrats. They aren't paid to think.

Perhaps you should be wondering about a society that takes delight in rounding up law abiding citizens (granted, here illegally) and deporting them. Yet, doesn't punish businesses that knowling hire and exploit illegals..well, they are coming after those businesses here in AZ.

Perhaps you should be wondering about all the tough rhetoric from the conservatives about fences, deportation, etc...when polls clearly show that americans favor a path to citizenship.

As for the judges, etc...i can't say why in Wisco they act like they do. Here, it is because they will face hordes of neo nazi's that will picket, become enmeshed in white power fights...or they realize the futility of going against the Bush led fed gov't. How is a state senator going to have any success against a federal law/agency?

Pick your poison.

[texaspackerbacker]

He is committed to completing the fence, etc. in a timely way.

this border fence will NEVER be built for a variety of reasons. People who study problem know that it is money poured down the drain. Smugglers would get illegals in the country even with a fence. Politicians keep talking about this fence because it sounds like appealling, simple fix. They are pandering.

The first step to deal with illegal imigration is to have a national identity card. You can't begin to deal with illegals when it is easy to forge identity.

Sieg Heil, Harlan!

A national ID card? You've got to be kidding. Talk about the potential for abuse, big brotherism, intrusive government in the worst way. I believe the expression, "throwing out the baby with the bath water" fits the situation.

First of all, a fence in conjunction with other methods IS FEASIBLE. The one in the San Diego area works very well. The plan most fence supporters have is not to cover the whole 1,700 or whatever miles it is from the Pacific to the Gulf, but to use natural barriers, human coverage--the Border Patrol, along with technology--air and ground surveillance, etc. That's not saying that no smugglers would ever get people in, but it would take something extraordinary--by ship or plane, something like that. Thus, the number would be reduced to practically nothing.

[Deputy Nutz]

I find it hilarious when conservatives start complaining about how unfair it is that this kid will be sent back.

Guess you would want some of the liberal "activist" judges to intercede.

I know you are not talking about me because I am a fence rider.

Why you bringing up your sexual peccadilloes into a discussion on immigration?

I was talking politics, sometimes you can be so immature.

I knew what you were referring too..hence the joke since the post wasn't directed at you.

Gee, sometimes you take things so serious.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

I find it hilarious when conservatives start complaining about how unfair it is that this kid will be sent back.

Guess you would want some of the liberal "activist" judges to intercede.

I know you are not talking about me because I am a fence rider.

Why you bringing up your sexual peccadilloes into a discussion on immigration?

I was talking politics, sometimes you can be so immature.

I knew what you were referring too..hence the joke since the post wasn't directed at you.

Gee, sometimes you take things so serious.

Prolly the partial effect.

[Harlan Huckleby]

The first step to deal with illegal imigration is to have a national identity card. You can't begin to deal with illegals when it is easy to forge identity.

Sieg Heil, Harlan!

A national ID card? You've got to be kidding. Talk about the potential for abuse, big brotherism, intrusive government in the worst way.

We already have a patchwork of identification that amounts to a National ID - social security #, drivers license #. You can't get a job without giving over you SSN, that's our effective national ID #.

The NID just makes it far harder to forge documents, which currently is easy as pie.

How can one decide who is illegal without first knowing whether a person's identity is legitimate?

I would insist that all people in the U.S. be given such acard, whether they are here legally or not. Then we can actually have a policy, collect taxes from EVERYBODY.

[Harlan Huckleby]

First of all, a fence in conjunction with other methods IS FEASIBLE. The one in the San Diego area works very well. The plan most fence supporters have is not to cover the whole 1,700 or whatever miles it is from the Pacific to the Gulf, but to use natural barriers, human coverage--the Border Patrol, along with technology--air and ground surveillance, etc. That's not saying that no smugglers would ever get people in, but it would take something extraordinary--by ship or plane, something like that. Thus, the number would be reduced to practically nothing.

this is going to be far leakier than you imagine. People are gonna get here - how have our efforts to stop drug smuggling worked out? It will just drive-up fees & opportunities for coyotes.

The answer is to have a SANE policy on this side of the border, recognize that we need a LARGE number of new immigrants, and then have strict hiring enforcement with national ID card as necessary tool.

You can't simply say "enforce the law" when the law does not reflect reality.

[texaspackerbacker]

First of all, Harlan, just driving up the price alone would considerably lessen the number. Secondly, the fence/plus scenario would also do wonders for drug traffic prevention from that direction. And third, and most of all, you are wrong about the ineffectiveness of it. How exactly are they going to defeat such a system--other than flying over it or going way out into the Gulf or Pacific by boat--both of which should be fairly easy to catch also?

And on the national ID thing, we have all seen the old movies where the SS or whoever stops people indiscriminantly asking for "papers". That's just not something Americans should be subjected to.

And the idea you are suggesting--basically reward the illegals here with legality--a.k.a. amnesty, I have to ask WHY? You in effect disrespect/punish all those who have gotten here legally by doing that, AND, you take away the primary benefit to Americans of having them here--the cheap labor supply, as there would be little or no incentive to work cheap if they were legal. Oh, I know, you get all outraged about taking advantage of them like that, but the fact is, they would be getting away with breaking the law, and the other fact is, they would be far better off working for sub-minimum wages here than they would be at home.

[Harlan Huckleby]

How exactly are they going to defeat such a system--other than flying over it or going way out into the Gulf or Pacific by boat--both of which should be fairly easy to catch also?

OK, how about by driving a semi-truck across the border. They aren't going to inspect every truck, they can't unpack trucks at the border, and people can be hidden in back of packed truck.
How about bribing local officials? Huge numbers could flow.
How about fake IDs? Peoople can enter "legally" because currently it is easy to get fake identity.
What about walking across Canadian border? Doh! Smugglers will get people in.

go ahead and build your fence, I don't care. It won't actually hurt anything, other than drain resources. But the proof is in the pudding: politicians have not acted on it for 20 years because their more sophisticated analysis indicates that it is a loser idea.

There are FAR better ways to control illegals. You make it unattractive to be here illegally.

And on the national ID thing, we have all seen the old movies where the SS or whoever stops people indiscriminantly asking for "papers". That's just not something Americans should be subjected to.

This is just stupid. Why aren't you upset about drivers licenses? Cops often ask to see those. And do you fear social security numbers? Your credit rating, your taxes, everything is tied to your SSN. Big brother can already track you.
A national ID card changes NOTHING conceptually. We already require ID. The only change is that we'll have ID that will be very difficult to forge. You like people being wrecked by idenity theft? Do you like that drivers licenses, real or fake, are easy to get?

And the idea you are suggesting--basically reward the illegals here with legality--a.k.a. amnesty, I have to ask WHY? You in effect disrespect/punish all those who have gotten here legally by doing that,.

The vast majority of illegals are here because there is a demand for their services. If we had a realistic level of LEGAL immigration, then being "illegal" might mean something. But fact is we admit a few 100K legally, and then use tens of millions of illegals.
These individuals are doing nothing wrong. They are just trying to survive. They are breaking the rules of a system that is crooked.

I don't know what you mean by punishing the legal ones, that's trivial. But your willingness to exploit and mistreat millions of good people makes a mockery of your sudden conversion to fairness.

they would be far better off working for sub-minimum wages here than they would be at home.

I am violently opposed to building a feudal system of full citizens exploiting a lower class of serfs. I don't give a fuck what horrible conditions they come from, it is immoral to exploit their desperation.

This is fucking America. There is nothing more fundamental to our nation than the dignity and worth of every human. We should allow many mexicans into the country legally, exactly as many as we need, and they should be allowed a process to become citizens. It appears to me that we currently don't have an excess of labor, so the numbers in country now are close to reasonable.

People who want to have a permament underclass of 20 million Mexican serfs with no legal protections, treated like beasts of burden are racists. To a person, no exception.

[swede]

I was wrong.

Crackhead had a post that made some sense to me and made some good points. Although the 'Polls show Americans prefer a pathway to citizenship" thing is just an example of misleading polling. Americans are also in favor of being nice to kitties.

Blue Dawg wouldn't respond at all which was clever even by his devious standards. And his dialogue with the Texster had one incontravertible point that hit me in the forehead like a diamond crystal: addressing policies and economic factors that attract illegals would be more effective than a fence.

Soo...no more free school, no more free medical care, and throw employers of illegals into jail.

But you see the problem. If we do something we will end up being mean and unfair to many worthy people who would make good citizens.

If we do nothing we'll be Los Estados Unidos by 2085 and we'll be forced to sneak our senior citizens across the border into Canada in order to get them free Canadian health care and emergency rations of Purina Seal Chow and a six pack of Molson.

[texaspackerbacker]

Well, I will start out with the bottom line first. I really don't consider this whole discussion to be very high up on the hierarchy of issues. It's actually kind of boring in the grand scheme of things.

You make a couple of valid points, Harlan, about how a fence could be defeated. Requiring a passport at the Mexican border would overcome the phony ID thing. Requiring unloading at secure terminals near the border and reloading to go farther would take care of the truck thing. That would cost a lot more for the goods, but that is as much a good thing as bad anyway--making things produced south of the border less competitive with American-made.

What you alluded to, Harlan, and Swede went into more detail on would probably be effective over time. The problem is, it would also harm illegals already here. Do we really want untreated possibly contagious illegals running around? Do we really want a bunch of truants who aren't allowed in school running around making trouble? The way education has deteriorated in our schools, they are at least as much for keeping kids off the street as for teaching them. Thank you liberals for that. And punishing employers? Good normal American business people just trying to make a buck by providing a product or service at a lower price with cheaper labor? Myself, I would rather have the illegals working than that.

Which brings me to the only really interesting point in this whole boring discussion: Harlan, I still really don't see why you are getting so indignant about "taking advantage" of these people--who almost unanimously don't even mind being "taken advantage" of. As I said, if they didn't like the situation--sub-minimum wage jobs, they would either go home or never come. As for the morality of it, how is it immoral to have people making 5 or 10 times what they could be making in Mexico, just because they still make maybe half or a third what Americans would work for? Take that away and they are left with third world depravity at home--but you get to feel all moral about it.

This is the same mentality that makes liberals want to raise the minimum wage--never mind that they are pricing a lot of low wage workers out of a job because the employers can afford to pay the higher amount.

It's also the mentality that led northern white boat-rocking civil rights workers to go down south a generation ago and basically stir up trouble among blacks who were content with their life by telling them how bad off they were. Arguably the result in a bunch of different ways has been more harm than good. Oh shame on me for being so un-p.c.--now I suppose I'll be called racist.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

It's also the mentality that led northern white boat-rocking civil rights workers to go down south a generation ago and basically stir up trouble among blacks who were content with their life by telling them how bad off they were. Arguably the result in a bunch of different ways has been more harm than good. Oh shame on me for being so un-p.c.--now I suppose I'll be called racist.

Blacks were content. My god, the whoppers you tell.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Soo...no more free school, no more free medical care, and throw employers of illegals into jail.

But you see the problem. If we do something we will end up being mean and unfair to many worthy people who would make good citizens.

If we truly don't want the 20 million mexicans and central Americans here, we could get them out and keep them out. It wouldn't even be that difficult, despite widespread claims to contrary. The hold up is a lack of consensus, and for good reason.

I want them here, it is pretty obvious that they are net contributors. And there aren't too many of them, although there is definitely a threat of being overwhelmed. We need to be able to control flow.

Unless your position on immigration is that we should have open borders, we NEED a national ID card to implement ANY policy.

[falco]

It's also the mentality that led northern white boat-rocking civil rights workers to go down south a generation ago and basically stir up trouble among blacks who were content with their life by telling them how bad off they were. Arguably the result in a bunch of different ways has been more harm than good. Oh shame on me for being so un-p.c.--now I suppose I'll be called racist.

gee, ya think?

[texaspackerbacker]

Tyrone, I don't know how old you are (I suspect fairly young). I don't even know for sure you are black (but that at least is your forum persona).

Some of us are old enough to have been around back in the pre-civil rights era. I was a kid in Wisconsin back then, although I did travel through the south a couple of times. There are a lot of older generation blacks who remember that time who quietly lament the transformation of their situation and the attitudes and behavior of their subsequent generations as a result of a movement that was essentially promoted by a bunch of Hillary Clinton-types.

Granted, the time may come when the black population again achieves normalcy--this time in the context of equality and racial harmony. But it hasn't happened yet, and it won't happen until they stop being the pawns of the liberals and the Democrat Party. A lot of blacks are achieving success in the "white" system, and how are they perceived by liberal opinion leaders of the black population? This is not a rhetorical question. I'd like to hear what you have to say--considering the way they disrespect Condoleeza Rice. other successful blacks in conservative politics and business, even Bob Johnson, who is anything but a conservative.

[Partial]

Dude, Tyrone reeks of the 35 year old that was spoiled as a kid and grew up in the rich neighborhood. He's as white as snow. Either the rapper or the frozen composition. He's certainly got a massive ego that he loves to massage and tell everyone else how inferior and dumb they are while he boasts about how wonderful he is. His brother GoPackGo is the same damn way.