OFFICIAL BRETT THE LIVING LEGEND THREAD

[Gunakor]

...I am used to the hypocritical way the people here act...

Still awaiting an explaination of the hypocrisy you see here. Is not liking Favre being a hypocrit? How so? I think most people here that don't like Favre have been pretty clear about why they feel the way that they do, and I can find no hypocrisy in their explainations. For now I'll keep an open mind, because I'm actually very interested to hear where you're coming from when making these accusations. I just don't see it.

[gex]

For a second there, I thought you were talking about Peyton Manning's legacy. 2 super bowls, one win (where notably, he played like shit), one loss (where on a must have drive late in the 4th, he throws not just a pick, but a pick 6 to seal the game for the saints), then a slew of playoff exits, usually do in part to his poor play. Manning has not been a very successful post season QB, much like Favre.

What I am saying is, he has a ring. There are A LOT of all-time greats out there that don't. Is Dan Marino not an all-time great QB because he doesn't have rings? When it's all said and done, he will be remembered as one of the greatest QB's to play the game, and possibility the most liked, hated, feared, and diva at the position to ever play.

He holds all the records, is the most durable QB to ever play the game, and as was stated, most importantly he has his ring. Yes it's one. Yes there should of been more. Yes, he is a better QB then he has shown in big time playoff losses, because he showed it in the 90's in big time playoff wins, and even last season against dallas, a preseason SB favorite this year, he lit them up in the playoffs last year. He was even playing alright against the saints, and just failed late... which is something we are all too familiar with.

However, you can't deny he is/was a great player, and was extremely exciting to watch. He may not be your pick for a QB in the playoffs, (please, like I want anyone other than Joe Montana in the playoffs, MAYBE Bart Starr, though I don't know how well he would hold up in todays league) but I do know he has been a lot of fun to watch.

20 seasons in the NFL. He has been there from the very first time I watched a game to now, and through it all, has been entertaining to watch. I wish him well, and for his legacies sake I almost want him to get that 2nd ring, but I will never, ever, cheer for the vikings to win a SB.

AR, Packers, Driver... Woodson... lets bring Lombardi back home this year.

I could have been talking about Manning's career as well. It's a very fair comparison IMO. Both big time quarterbacks from September through November/December, both big time chokers in January. Believe me, I'm no more a Manning fan than I am a Favre fan. For the same reasons. Neither has been at their very best when they absolutely had to be. Both men have been asked to carry their teams, and both men have let their teams down. That's an undeniable fact. Though, I find it oddly strange that there are some people out there that harp on Manning for his post season failures while at the same time giving Favre a free pass for his.

It's nice that Favre has his ring. Same for Manning. Both are too good to not have won one. Neither is so great that they necessarily deserve a second one. September through December is just a prelude to January. January is where it counts. Win and you advance, lose and your heart is broken. The greatest players to have played the game have made their mark in the post season, not just the regular season. Neither Favre nor Manning have been anything special in the post season by any stretch of the imagination. Both QB's will undoubtedly end up in the HOF, but neither IMO will be remembered as being of the greatest to have played this game.

You are absolutely right about the entertainment value though. Favre undoubtedly was and is one of the most fun to watch. But it's not just entertainment to me. It's a serious passion. It's an emotional investment. To me it's about wins and losses and championships, not feel good stories that end in disappointment. When Favre threw that OT pick in the '07 NFCCG, it ruined all the fun and excitment from that season. One play wasted an entire season of greatness. And that's just one example. It wasn't the first time that happened. It wasn't the last time that happened. For that reason I think history won't look as kindly on Favre as some would like to think he should be. I firmly believe that history will remember the whole story, not just the better half.

So how many Quarterbacks we talking here...if they do not have multiple rings then in some form or another they choked when it mattered most, right?

[HarveyWallbangers]

Favre has choked more often than any other great QB in NFL history.

The horrible game losing interception against Dallas in the 1995 NFC Title Game when the Packers were driving for the lead in the 4th quarter

The poor throw to Chewy on 4th down in the Super Bowl against Denver

The 6 interceptions against the Rams (I don't put the blame for this much on him)

The dud against the Vikings (epitomized by the I'd rather underhand it three yards past the LOS than get hit)

The dud in his showdown against Michael Vick (first home playoff loss in Packers history)

The game losing interception heave to avoid getting hit against Philadelphia

The game losing interception on a poor throw to an open Donald Driver against the Giants

The game losing interception on a throw across his body in last year's NFC Title Game

[Gunakor]

For a second there, I thought you were talking about Peyton Manning's legacy. 2 super bowls, one win (where notably, he played like shit), one loss (where on a must have drive late in the 4th, he throws not just a pick, but a pick 6 to seal the game for the saints), then a slew of playoff exits, usually do in part to his poor play. Manning has not been a very successful post season QB, much like Favre.

What I am saying is, he has a ring. There are A LOT of all-time greats out there that don't. Is Dan Marino not an all-time great QB because he doesn't have rings? When it's all said and done, he will be remembered as one of the greatest QB's to play the game, and possibility the most liked, hated, feared, and diva at the position to ever play.

He holds all the records, is the most durable QB to ever play the game, and as was stated, most importantly he has his ring. Yes it's one. Yes there should of been more. Yes, he is a better QB then he has shown in big time playoff losses, because he showed it in the 90's in big time playoff wins, and even last season against dallas, a preseason SB favorite this year, he lit them up in the playoffs last year. He was even playing alright against the saints, and just failed late... which is something we are all too familiar with.

However, you can't deny he is/was a great player, and was extremely exciting to watch. He may not be your pick for a QB in the playoffs, (please, like I want anyone other than Joe Montana in the playoffs, MAYBE Bart Starr, though I don't know how well he would hold up in todays league) but I do know he has been a lot of fun to watch.

20 seasons in the NFL. He has been there from the very first time I watched a game to now, and through it all, has been entertaining to watch. I wish him well, and for his legacies sake I almost want him to get that 2nd ring, but I will never, ever, cheer for the vikings to win a SB.

AR, Packers, Driver... Woodson... lets bring Lombardi back home this year.

I could have been talking about Manning's career as well. It's a very fair comparison IMO. Both big time quarterbacks from September through November/December, both big time chokers in January. Believe me, I'm no more a Manning fan than I am a Favre fan. For the same reasons. Neither has been at their very best when they absolutely had to be. Both men have been asked to carry their teams, and both men have let their teams down. That's an undeniable fact. Though, I find it oddly strange that there are some people out there that harp on Manning for his post season failures while at the same time giving Favre a free pass for his.

It's nice that Favre has his ring. Same for Manning. Both are too good to not have won one. Neither is so great that they necessarily deserve a second one. September through December is just a prelude to January. January is where it counts. Win and you advance, lose and your heart is broken. The greatest players to have played the game have made their mark in the post season, not just the regular season. Neither Favre nor Manning have been anything special in the post season by any stretch of the imagination. Both QB's will undoubtedly end up in the HOF, but neither IMO will be remembered as being of the greatest to have played this game.

You are absolutely right about the entertainment value though. Favre undoubtedly was and is one of the most fun to watch. But it's not just entertainment to me. It's a serious passion. It's an emotional investment. To me it's about wins and losses and championships, not feel good stories that end in disappointment. When Favre threw that OT pick in the '07 NFCCG, it ruined all the fun and excitment from that season. One play wasted an entire season of greatness. And that's just one example. It wasn't the first time that happened. It wasn't the last time that happened. For that reason I think history won't look as kindly on Favre as some would like to think he should be. I firmly believe that history will remember the whole story, not just the better half.

So how many Quarterbacks we talking here...if they do not have multiple rings then in some form or another they choked when it mattered most, right?

Not necessarily. It could be a RB that fumbles the game away in overtime. It could be a LB that misses a tackle that leads to the winning TD. It could be that the teams surrounding those great QB's were not of a championship caliber to begin with. You can't just make a broad statement such as yours, suggesting that the QB is solely responsible for every win and every loss. But looking at specific games, and the specific plays that were the deciding factor in those games, Favre and Manning played on championship caliber teams that wasted opportunities because of the not so clutch play of the quarterback himself. That's not a broad look at it, rather a very specific assesment of how opportunities were wasted and who was responsible for wasting them.

Take that '07 NFCCG as an example. Yes, Al got burnt repeatedly. Grant couldn't get anything going on the ground. Yet at the end of the game Green Bay had the ball in overtime and needed just 35 yards or so for a reasonable FG opportunity to secure a Super Bowl berth. No guarantee they get there, to be certain, but the opportunity was there. There was no need to take any chances as neither the clock nor the score put Green Bay in an unfavorable position. Favre drops back in a clean pocket, has plenty of time to throw, has several open recievers including the one he eventually threw the ball to. It was an awful throw - good decision, but an awful throw. It was picked off and immediately put the Giants in position to steal that victory. End of opportunity.

Blame can be spread around for the reason why OT happened in the first place, and it should be, but the game wasn't lost in regulation. Perhaps it should have been won in regulation, and I don't blame Favre for the fact that it wasn't. But it was lost in overtime. For that, Favre must shoulder the blame. He wasn't great when he absolutely had to be. Whether it was the cold, the pressure, or whatever it was, he just didn't come through for his team when he absolutely needed to. It wasn't the first time, nor the last. For that reason, I don't think history will view him as one of the greatest players ever.

[Tarlam!]

Favre has choked more often than any other great QB in NFL history.

The dud in his showdown against Michael Vick (first home playoff loss in Packers history)

Not sure why you would put that loss on Bert. IIRC, that team was terribley depleted with injuries. And Vick had a career game. Unstoppable.

[Tarlam!]

Favre drops back in a clean pocket, has plenty of time to throw, has several open recievers including the one he eventually threw the ball to. It was an awful throw - good decision, but an awful throw. It was picked off and immediately put the Giants in position to steal that victory. End of opportunity.

You're being kind. DD was double covered. Grant was wide open. It was a discusting decision and a miserable throw.

Had it of been the last throw of his NFL career, we would collectively remember him fondly around here. But the fact is, Bert is bigger than the team or the NFL. His conduct off of the field is disgraceful.

[Gunakor]

Favre drops back in a clean pocket, has plenty of time to throw, has several open recievers including the one he eventually threw the ball to. It was an awful throw - good decision, but an awful throw. It was picked off and immediately put the Giants in position to steal that victory. End of opportunity.

You're being kind. DD was double covered. Grant was wide open. It was a discusting decision and a miserable throw.

Had it of been the last throw of his NFL career, we would collectively remember him fondly around here. But the fact is, Bert is bigger than the team or the NFL. His conduct off of the field is disgraceful.

Na, he was single covered and he had a yard or two cushion between him and the defender. Problem was, Favre threw it behind and to the side the defender was playing him. I had no problem with the decision. Driver was Favre's go to guy and appeared to have a step on the defender. Just a god awful throw. That's how I remember that play anyway.

[Patler]

How Favre is remembered will depend a lot on the outcome of this season.
If he plays well and the Vikings win the Super Bowl he will be remembered in a totally different light than if he throws another one away, for example. If they win it, much about his previous miscues will be forgotten. If he does it yet again, it will be a central factor in the Favre story. If the Vikings and Favre go quietly this year, the Favre story is already complete.

[Fritz]

You've nailed it, Patler. I would add though that if Favre and the Vikings play poorly this year, it might - oddly enough - erase some of the legacy of Favre and his clutch interceptions. I say this because I think if he plays poorly and the Vikes go nowhere, the new storyline will be that the old man stayed one year too long, and he'll be lumped in with guys like Johnny U. That won't be his whole legacy, for sure but will overtake some of the interception legacy.

[Fritz]

In thinking about Favre's reason for coming back after reading an article that mentioned how often Brent used the word "favor" in his press conference, it strikes me that he's set this up perfectly - probably subconsciously - for himself.

On the one hand, if the report about locker room dissatisfaction and the team's preference for Favre's play calling is true, then Favre gets to run that team and do what he wants. On the other hand, if it doesn't work out - well, he did it as a "favor" to "the guyz." So it's not his fault.

Hmmm. More on the psyche of that fascinating dude. And he is rather fascinating.

[packerbacker1234]

Favre drops back in a clean pocket, has plenty of time to throw, has several open recievers including the one he eventually threw the ball to. It was an awful throw - good decision, but an awful throw. It was picked off and immediately put the Giants in position to steal that victory. End of opportunity.

You're being kind. DD was double covered. Grant was wide open. It was a discusting decision and a miserable throw.

Had it of been the last throw of his NFL career, we would collectively remember him fondly around here. But the fact is, Bert is bigger than the team or the NFL. His conduct off of the field is disgraceful.

Na, he was single covered and he had a yard or two cushion between him and the defender. Problem was, Favre threw it behind and to the side the defender was playing him. I had no problem with the decision. Driver was Favre's go to guy and appeared to have a step on the defender. Just a god awful throw. That's how I remember that play anyway.

Yeah, I think people are trying to make the decision to throw it to his first read as being a worse decision then it really was. Yes, there were a few other options that were more open than Driver, but his very first read did have a few steps on his defender, and if the ball wasn't thrown so badly behind driver, it's a nice completion and no one is the wiser.

I mean, I don't blame favre for who he threw it too - I have no doubt that Driver was his first read, and his go to guy, on that play. He was also open enough to warrant a throw. Favre just made a bad pass.

It's one of the few situations in his career where the int wasn't really due to a bad decision, just a shitty throw, which is not something we are really use to seeing, as favre has always been pretty accurate with his passes. I think in this you saw the cold really affecting him. Not that it's a real excuse, but clearly the ball didn't go where he wanted it too.

[ThunderDan]

Favre drops back in a clean pocket, has plenty of time to throw, has several open recievers including the one he eventually threw the ball to. It was an awful throw - good decision, but an awful throw. It was picked off and immediately put the Giants in position to steal that victory. End of opportunity.

You're being kind. DD was double covered. Grant was wide open. It was a discusting decision and a miserable throw.

Had it of been the last throw of his NFL career, we would collectively remember him fondly around here. But the fact is, Bert is bigger than the team or the NFL. His conduct off of the field is disgraceful.

Na, he was single covered and he had a yard or two cushion between him and the defender. Problem was, Favre threw it behind and to the side the defender was playing him. I had no problem with the decision. Driver was Favre's go to guy and appeared to have a step on the defender. Just a god awful throw. That's how I remember that play anyway.

Yeah, I think people are trying to make the decision to throw it to his first read as being a worse decision then it really was. Yes, there were a few other options that were more open than Driver, but his very first read did have a few steps on his defender, and if the ball wasn't thrown so badly behind driver, it's a nice completion and no one is the wiser.

I mean, I don't blame favre for who he threw it too - I have no doubt that Driver was his first read, and his go to guy, on that play. He was also open enough to warrant a throw. Favre just made a bad pass.

It's one of the few situations in his career where the int wasn't really due to a bad decision, just a shitty throw, which is not something we are really use to seeing, as favre has always been pretty accurate with his passes. I think in this you saw the cold really affecting him. Not that it's a real excuse, but clearly the ball didn't go where he wanted it too.

To be read: Every other receiver on the play was more open than Donald Driver.

[MOBB DEEP]

This is the way it will be remembered.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=ys-brettfavretimeline073009

Here’s a brief look back at the QB’s past three years, starting with a record-setting performance against the Vikings.

Favre receives a congratulatory hug from his wife Deanna following the Packers’ 23-16 victory over the Minnesota Vikings on Sept. 30, 2007. Favre threw his NFL record 421st touchdown in the first quarter.
(Jeff Gross/Getty Images)
2007
Sept. 30: Favre passes Dan Marino’s all-time touchdown pass record of 420 vs. the Vikings.

Packers’ season: The team won the NFC North with a 13-3 record and made the NFC championship game, but was defeated by the New York Giants 23-20. Favre finishes the regular season with 28 touchdown passes for 4,155 yards and 15 interceptions.

2008
January/February: Favre withdraws from Pro Bowl after an ankle injury

March 4: Favre announces he will retire.

March 6: Favre retires, gives tearful retirement press conference.

March 27: Favre tells coach Mike McCarthy and general manager Ted Thompson he made mistake by retiring.

June 20: Favre calls McCarthy with plans to unretire. McCarthy says team has moved on with new starter Aaron Rodgers(notes).

July 11: Asks for unconditional release to play for another team. Packers deny.

July 16: Packers file tampering charges against the Vikings.

July 29: Favre faxes paperwork to the NFL to be reinstated.


McCarthy
July 30: Packers president and CEO Mark Murphy meets with Favre in Mississippi to persuade Favre to remain retired. Source close to Favre says the team floated $20 million offer over 10 years for Favre to stay retired.

Aug. 3: NFL reinstates Favre.

Aug. 4: Favre reports to Packers training camp. Meets with head coach Mike McCarthy and general manager Ted Thompson and they agree to part ways.

Aug. 7: The Vikings are interested in Favre, but since he’s not a free agent the Packers refuse to trade him within the division, instead opting for a trade to the Jets for conditional fourth-round pick in the 2009 draft ($12 million salary).

Favre and the Jets lose to Seattle in Week 16.
Jets’ season: The team lost four of their last five games and missed the playoffs with an overall record of 9-7. Favre finished with 22 touchdown passes for 3,472 yards and 22 interceptions, including eight interceptions in the final four games.

Dec. 29: MRI reveals torn biceps tendon in Favre’s right shoulder, requiring arthroscopic surgery.

2009
Feb. 11: Favre tells Jets he will retire.


Childress
April 28: Jets waive Favre off their reserved/retired list for unknown reasons. Favre is free to sign with any team should he unretire. Jets selected former USC QB Mark Sanchez(notes) in the NFL draft three days earlier.

May: Favre undergoes arthroscopic surgery to repair his injured right passing shoulder. Shoulder is reportedly not 100 percent.

May 7: Favre tells Vikings coach Matt Childress he wants to remain retired.

May 29-31: Vikings’ mandatory minicamp goes on without Favre. Tarvaris Jackson(notes), Sage Rosenfels(notes) and John David Booty(notes) are the quarterbacks.

June 15: Favre acknowledges on HBO’s “Joe Buck Live” that he’s “considering it” when asked about playing in 2009.

Vikings coach Brad Childress drives Favre from airport to training camp on Aug. 18.
(AP photo)
July 9: Vikings trainer Eric Sugarman visits Hattiesburg, Miss., for the second time since June to check Favre’s physical condition, according to the Star Tribune.

July 15: Tells the Associated Press that the Vikings will know by the July 30 start to their training camp whether he will be attending.

July 20: Vikings single-game tickets go on sale.

July 28: Brad Childress tells the Star Tribune that Favre will stay retired.

Aug. 18: Favre arrives at Vikings training camp to meet with coach Brad Childress and others and is in helmet and pads less than 90 minutes after arriving wearing practice jersey No. 4. AP reports a deal is done.

Sept. 13: Favre throws 1 TD pass and no INTs in a win over Cleveland in his regular-season debut for the Vikes.

Sept. 27: Favre’s TD pass to Greg Lewis with two seconds remaining beats the 49ers.

Oct. 5: In his first game against the Packers, Favre throws 3 TD passes as Minnesota improves to 4-0.

Nov. 1: In his first game back at Lambeau Field, Favre throws 4 TD passes as Minnesota improves to 7-1.

Dec. 20: Favre refuses Childress’ request to come out of the game during a loss to the Panthers.

2010

The Saints pounded Favre.
(Matt Stamey/US Presswire)
Jan. 17: Favre throws four 4 TD passes in an NFC divisional playoff win vs. the Cowboys.

Jan. 24: Favre throws a critical fourth-quarter pick in the NFC title game loss vs. the Saints.

May 21: Favre confirms on his website that he had arthroscopic surgery on his left ankle.

Aug. 3: Star Tribune reports that Favre informed the Vikings he would not return for a 20th season.

It is missing a few key points.

McCarthy and Thompson decide they will welcome him back. They secure a private jet from a Packers board member to visit Favre in person and seal the deal. Favre immediately backs down.

Favre allegedly tells Campen that the Vikings are interested in him, even though he is still under contract with the Packers.

McCarthy asks Favre if he was 100 percent committed to a return. "He said, 'No, no, I'm not saying I'm there yet."

McCarthy told Favre, point-blank, that he didn’t want to turn on his TV or computer after the meeting ended and see quotes from Favre, anonymous or otherwise, discussing the interaction. Yet on Tuesday morning, an article turned up on espn.com with numerous quotes from Favre. The quarterback said, among other things, the Packers had “planted” inaccurate stories about him and that “they tried to buy me off to stay retired” – a reference to the reported 10-year, $20-million marketing deal the team offered. Favre also provided specifics of his conversation with McCarthy, in direct violation of the coach’s previously stated wishes.

The $20-million deal was offered to Favre long before he ever began talking about returning.

Another key point missed - While on the Jets, Favre talks to the Lions with tips on the Packers' offense.

This passes for journalism? Who the hell wrote this thing, Mobb Deep??

hehehe

watsup bossy?

[packers11]

This passes for journalism? Who the hell wrote this thing, Mobb Deep??

[sharpe1027]

This passes for journalism? Who the hell wrote this thing, Mobb Deep??

I've been misquoted.