VICK DA GREAT

[Gunakor]

for the record, other than the packers or lord favre i CARE NOT about wins and losses just ENTERTAINMENT

You are in the extreme minority here Mobb. Most of us - probably 99% of us - do care a great deal about wins and losses. Our loyalty is to the team, and wins are much more entertaining than loses. If our opponent makes 100 great plays and defeats us, it isn't entertaining. No matter how exciting the other team's great plays were, they were the opponents plays and the opponents victory. A great majority of us could not and would not be entertained in that scenario.

[Gunakor]

espn poll:

65% of ppl want to see vick da great play this season

what do the other 35% want? him banned for life??

I can't speak for all 35% of us, but what I want is for him to earn his chance to come back.

If I got arrested today and went to prison for a year, I wouldn't be given my job back when I got out. I dont' think there's even any amount of reconciliation or making amends that would convince my hotel to hire me back. It just wouldn't happen. So Vick already has an opportunity that wouldn't be afforded to most people, that being the opportunity to actually get his job back. I truly hope he takes full advantage of that opportunity and does all the right things and stays the right course so he can get his job back.

[MOBB DEEP]

u misunderstood me; i wasnt sayn all poor black folk engage in this I doubt there is any census data to back this up, but dog fighting is not 75% Black. It's a dirty Southern thing. They show raids of dog fighting places all the time on TV around here. It's all hillbillies that they arrest. I'd say it's a 60-40 or 70-30 or more to the poor white trash side of the ledger as to who fights dogs.

thanks for info; i woulda never guessed

they use pitbulls too?

[MOBB DEEP]

for the record, other than the packers or lord favre i CARE NOT about wins and losses just ENTERTAINMENT

You are in the extreme minority here Mobb. Most of us - probably 99% of us - do care a great deal about wins and losses. Our loyalty is to the team, and wins are much more entertaining than loses. If our opponent makes 100 great plays and defeats us, it isn't entertaining. No matter how exciting the other team's great plays were, they were the opponents plays and the opponents victory. A great majority of us could not and would not be entertained in that scenario.

Gun, when i say im more interested in the ENTERTAINMENT component i dont mean in a game in which my fav team or player is playn....im speaking only about the OTHER games played that week or season...i said that in response to a poster pointing out that Vick da great doesnt/hasnt won enough....moss aint won jack but i LOVE watchn him play (now that ive evolved into an individual that puts pro sports in perspective - i used to HATE moss! but for what? being drafted by another team as if he had control over it??!! elementary compared to real life issues)...like some poster said, these guys bash each other's heads in on sundays but are friends off-field...its only the lunatic fringe/FANatics that take this mess personally as if their life will change either way...btw, i give ALL the glory to God b/c i had to pray to develop my current mindset b/c i used to be broken up for DAYS after a packer loss; foolish, b/c life goes on...now im distraught only until the next morn lol

if im not pulln for a team i dont care if theyve made the best personnel moves; just show me the highlights

hope i made my point better

[Gunakor]

for the record, other than the packers or lord favre i CARE NOT about wins and losses just ENTERTAINMENT

You are in the extreme minority here Mobb. Most of us - probably 99% of us - do care a great deal about wins and losses. Our loyalty is to the team, and wins are much more entertaining than loses. If our opponent makes 100 great plays and defeats us, it isn't entertaining. No matter how exciting the other team's great plays were, they were the opponents plays and the opponents victory. A great majority of us could not and would not be entertained in that scenario.

Gun, when i say im more interested in the ENTERTAINMENT component i dont mean in a game in which my fav team or player is playn....im speaking only about the OTHER games played that week or season...i said that in response to a poster pointing out that Vick da great doesnt/hasnt won enough....moss aint won jack but i LOVE watchn him play (now that ive evolved into an individual that puts pro sports in perspective - i used to HATE moss! but for what? being drafted by another team as if he had control over it??!! elementary compared to real life issues)...like some poster said, these guys bash each other's heads in on sundays but are friends off-field...its only the lunatic fringe/FANatics that take this mess personally as if their life will change either way...btw, i give ALL the glory to God b/c i had to pray to develop my current mindset b/c i used to be broken up for DAYS after a packer loss; foolish, b/c life goes on...now im distraught only until the next morn lol

if im not pulln for a team i dont care if theyve made the best personnel moves; just show me the highlights

hope i made my point better

My mistake then, sorry for the misunderstanding.

[KYPack]

u misunderstood me; i wasnt sayn all poor black folk engage in this I doubt there is any census data to back this up, but dog fighting is not 75% Black. It's a dirty Southern thing. They show raids of dog fighting places all the time on TV around here. It's all hillbillies that they arrest. I'd say it's a 60-40 or 70-30 or more to the poor white trash side of the ledger as to who fights dogs.

thanks for info; i woulda never guessed

they use pitbulls too?

Mobb, this is how it's supposed to work. You are the hip, urban black man who explains all of this stuff to his naive Whiteboy net buddies. Somehow with you, the process is backwards.

Hell Yeah they fight pit bulls!

Quote on

Kentucky and Indiana have more lenient penalties for dog fighting.
Even so, the practice seems to have grown in recent years as it has moved into urban areas, said Norma Woolf, editor of Dog Owners' Guide, a regional newsletter based in Cincinnati. ''The pit bull seems to be the dog of choice of young men who want to prove how macho they are: 'My dog can beat your dog,''' she said.
Dog fights can last for as long as two hours, until one dog either turns away or dies fighting. Even the winner may die hours or days after a battle from blood loss, shock, dehydration, exhaustion or infection.
LOUISVILLE (WAVE) -- Four men are behind bars after a suspected dog fighting ring was busted in south Louisville early Monday morning.
Police say they found one injured pit bull, a bloody plywood ring and a large amount of cash in a garage off Camden Avenue.
Louis Fields, Andre Judkins, Joseph Taylor, Jr., and Jerry Watkins, Jr. are all charged with cruelty to animals.

Quote off

The whole deal started YEARS ago in the country. (There are Black Hillbillies, too, ya know.) It's gradually moved into the city and got urbanized, but it's an equal opportunity perversion. Blacks, whites, & other lowlifes do it all over the country.

[Packnut]

Justice

IF there was any justice on this earth, anyone participating in dog fighting in any way shape or form, should be thrown into a cage with a lion or tiger and see what it feels like to be torn apart.

I hope Michael Vick dies a horrible death at some point in time.........

[pbmax]

If I got arrested today and went to prison for a year, I wouldn't be given my job back when I got out. I dont' think there's even any amount of reconciliation or making amends that would convince my hotel to hire me back. It just wouldn't happen. So Vick already has an opportunity that wouldn't be afforded to most people, that being the opportunity to actually get his job back. I truly hope he takes full advantage of that opportunity and does all the right things and stays the right course so he can get his job back.

But is that a function of the crime you (theoretically) committed or a function of being replaceable?

You may not get your job back. But if you were so good at it that only 31 other people in the country could do it and be profitable, I would say there is a much better chance of you returning to the hotel.

You see justice being served by losing the job. But it might be supply and demand.

[Gunakor]

If I got arrested today and went to prison for a year, I wouldn't be given my job back when I got out. I dont' think there's even any amount of reconciliation or making amends that would convince my hotel to hire me back. It just wouldn't happen. So Vick already has an opportunity that wouldn't be afforded to most people, that being the opportunity to actually get his job back. I truly hope he takes full advantage of that opportunity and does all the right things and stays the right course so he can get his job back.

But is that a function of the crime you (theoretically) committed or a function of being replaceable?

You may not get your job back. But if you were so good at it that only 31 other people in the country could do it and be profitable, I would say there is a much better chance of you returning to the hotel.

You see justice being served by losing the job. But it might be supply and demand.

It's a function of both. Everyone is replaceable here so of course that's part of it. But beyond that, we simply do not employ people with a felony conviction, regardless of the actual crime or how long they've sat for. Especially if that felony occured while employed here.

I think you're overstating Vick's production anyway. If Vick is so good that only 31 other people in the country can do it like he does then he might just get a job in the NFL this year. But that's not the case and both of us know it. He might have a gift that few others have, but that didn't translate to Super Bowl caliber play. It took the Falcons all of 2 years to find a better quarterback than Vick, and he would go on to lead them to the playoffs in his rookie season. There's a handful of teams that have better backup QB's than Vick, and a backup is all he'd be this year anyway. Besides that, even if I didn't have a QB as effective as Vick I'd still rather take a temporary loss in production from the QB position and look for a different solution than willingly employ a man with a felony conviction.

I don't see justice being served simply by losing the job. He's already lost his job, that part I'm not concerned with. My concern is his getting the job back in time for the 2009 season, which doesn't seem very just to me at all. Nor does it seem like a wise thing for an NFL GM to do without allowing at least a year for Vick to show what he has learned from this ordeal and his ability to apply those lessons to his everyday life. I wouldn't take any chances. I'd just assume the number of games I'd lose if he got into trouble again is greater than the number of games I'd win if he doesn't and decide it's not worth the risk. But that's me.

[th87]

Re: Justice

IF there was any justice on this earth, anyone participating in dog fighting in any way shape or form, should be thrown into a cage with a lion or tiger and see what it feels like to be torn apart.

I hope Michael Vick dies a horrible death at some point in time.........

This is like hoping that we all get bred, held captive, and then eaten by cows.

(Not saying eating meat is anywhere close to equal to dog-fighting, of course, but it's not without its barbarity either.)

[th87]

This got me thinking - why so much outrage for dog fighting specifically?

1. Humans hunt foxes with dogs. They are chased down, mauled, and destroyed by the dogs. Is the fox's pain any less than that of Vick's dogs?

2. How about deer hunting? Gunmen go out, chase the deer, shoot at them, and put them up in the living room. Don't the deer feel fear? Aren't they being put in distress? Don't they feel the loss of a family member in their own primitive way?

3. And in the meat industry, cows, chickens, etc. are held captive and raised in small pens, in the dark, in their own feces and urine. They are pumped with hormones to keep them growing, and then with antibiotics to deal with the illnesses that their feces give them. And then when it's time to go they are hauled off screaming and then we all know what happens.

4. Horses get their genitals removed so they behave. Then they are trained so they can be raced to make money for the owners. If the horse suffers an injury, they are shot.
___

One might argue that eating meat and hunting is for food purposes. But do we really NEED to eat meat? There are substitutes available. I realize this is societally infeasible, and I personally eat a lot of meat. But for the sake of argument, why is killing animals for food some absolute necessity?

My point is, humans treat all kinds of animals badly universally (to varying degrees). But the only moral outrage is about dogs. Dogs, for whatever reason, are placed on a higher pedestal. And I'm guessing that that's because they are our pets, and we're culturally conditioned to consider them our friends and loved ones.

Of course, dog fighting is reprehensible. The manner in which they are treated is barbaric and inhumane. But so too, to a lesser extent, are the other things I listed above. This is to a lesser extent, definitely, but there are certainly some not-so-nice elements there.

Just so there's no mistake, I'm not equating dog fighting to any of the things listed above. And of course, not condoning Vick's actions.

I'm raising the question of if we want to show outrage, we should show it for all animal suffering. Dog fighting is among the worst, so it should get the most outrage, and farming cows in that fashion should get outrage, but slightly less. And so on.

Or we can accept the fact that humanity universally treats its animals badly, and while Vick's actions were definitely bad, the unscrupulous farmer's is also somewhat bad. And since we don't wish harm on said farmer, we shouldn't on Vick either. He was simply a product of culture and desensitization. Not some evil guy (as far as I know).

He paid his debt to society. Now should be the time for repentance and becoming a better person.

[Gunakor]

He paid his debt to society. Now should be the time for repentance and becoming a better person.

Repentance and becoming a better person is part of his debt to society as far as I'm concerned. Same goes for any other criminal as it does for Vick. Which is why I feel that debt has yet to be fully paid. That's the point I've been trying to make.

[SkinBasket]

3. And in the meat industry, cows, chickens, etc. are held captive and raised in small pens, in the dark, in their own feces and urine. They are pumped with hormones to keep them growing, and then with antibiotics to deal with the illnesses that their feces give them. And then when it's time to go they are hauled off screaming and then we all know what happens.

Seriously. Thanks for the laugh.

[th87]

Yeah, I know. It was a dramatization. But they do say cows sometimes "know" and voice their distress.

[KYPack]

Yeah, I know. It was a dramatization. But they do say cows sometimes "know" and voice their distress.

If God didn't want us to eat cows, then why are they made out of all that good meat?

'Course, people are made out of meat, too, but that's a touchier issue.