VICK DA GREAT

[Zool]

If cows don't want to be eaten, they should stop tasting so good.

[GrnBay007]

I won't eat veal or lamb.....just can't do it.

[SkinBasket]

I won't eat veal or lamb.....just can't do it.

I laugh while I digest them. Poor little tasty bastards.

There used to be a wonderful restaurant in Madison called Top of the Park or something on the top floor of the Best Western on the capital square. It closed long ago, but it had a wonderful veal oscar dish covered in a delicious crab meat sauce. A lot of places try to pawn off shrimp as "oscar." Low budget. This place also had a spectacular banana foster desert with the open flame and everything.

[MichiganPackerFan]

I won't eat veal or lamb.....just can't do it.

Both delicious! Que the Alton Brown Good Eats! theme music!

[Waldo]

The NFL is in the entertainment business and not the feel good, high moral, good people business.

The NFL is full of free agent (independent contractors in a way) that sign with teams for a fixed length of time to provide entertainment services. Like actors, and musicians, etc... Lets not forget what this thing is. And sorry but Michael Vick is a lot more entertaining than at least 80% of the players in the league.

While whether his time in prison can count toward NFL mandated punishment is certainly debatable, to suspend a guy (first time offender) any more than 4 games for what he did is an absolute joke. Pac Man, Henry, and Marshall should have received lifetime bans long ago if Vick is "worthy" of any more suspension time.

I think GB would be great place for him. We have an unquestioned starter QB. We have an atmosphere where guys tend to stay out of trouble. If Vick isn't a starting QB (he won't be, at least right away, thus he'd have to take a shorter contract as a backup QB somewhere first), MM is easily in my top 3 of OC/HC's that would be able to get the most out of him as a backup QB. He would probably come very cheap relative to his quality (music to TT's ears), as he is a bit of a pariah (kinda like Koren was).

And Vick would be a very good backup QB, especially if there is a situation where he can heavily augment a pure passer backup. If we were to take him on, instead of moving one of the other QB's in a forced manner (poor trade value), I'd almost be inclined to skip on the 2 FB thing and replace 1 of the FB's with the X factor in Vick, and use Vick in place of one of the FB's in the same 2 FB formation. The stuff that MM could think up for Vick.....

[Harlan Huckleby]

I won't eat veal or lamb.....just can't do it.

lamb? what is so sacred about lamb? I can see not eating squirrel, those little buggers are cute.


P.E.T.A. - People Eating Tasty Animals.

[Packnut]

Points

This got me thinking - why so much outrage for dog fighting specifically?

1. Humans hunt foxes with dogs. They are chased down, mauled, and destroyed by the dogs. Is the fox's pain any less than that of Vick's dogs?

2. How about deer hunting? Gunmen go out, chase the deer, shoot at them, and put them up in the living room. Don't the deer feel fear? Aren't they being put in distress? Don't they feel the loss of a family member in their own primitive way?

3. And in the meat industry, cows, chickens, etc. are held captive and raised in small pens, in the dark, in their own feces and urine. They are pumped with hormones to keep them growing, and then with antibiotics to deal with the illnesses that their feces give them. And then when it's time to go they are hauled off screaming and then we all know what happens.

4. Horses get their genitals removed so they behave. Then they are trained so they can be raced to make money for the owners. If the horse suffers an injury, they are shot.
___

One might argue that eating meat and hunting is for food purposes. But do we really NEED to eat meat? There are substitutes available. I realize this is societally infeasible, and I personally eat a lot of meat. But for the sake of argument, why is killing animals for food some absolute necessity?

My point is, humans treat all kinds of animals badly universally (to varying degrees). But the only moral outrage is about dogs. Dogs, for whatever reason, are placed on a higher pedestal. And I'm guessing that that's because they are our pets, and we're culturally conditioned to consider them our friends and loved ones.

Of course, dog fighting is reprehensible. The manner in which they are treated is barbaric and inhumane. But so too, to a lesser extent, are the other things I listed above. This is to a lesser extent, definitely, but there are certainly some not-so-nice elements there.

Just so there's no mistake, I'm not equating dog fighting to any of the things listed above. And of course, not condoning Vick's actions.

I'm raising the question of if we want to show outrage, we should show it for all animal suffering. Dog fighting is among the worst, so it should get the most outrage, and farming cows in that fashion should get outrage, but slightly less. And so on.

Or we can accept the fact that humanity universally treats its animals badly, and while Vick's actions were definitely bad, the unscrupulous farmer's is also somewhat bad. And since we don't wish harm on said farmer, we shouldn't on Vick either. He was simply a product of culture and desensitization. Not some evil guy (as far as I know).

He paid his debt to society. Now should be the time for repentance and becoming a better person.

You make some valid points. However, not one of them is an excuse for what Vick did. Michael Vick is pond scum period.

[Packnut]

Vick

The NFL is in the entertainment business and not the feel good, high moral, good people business.

The NFL is full of free agent (independent contractors in a way) that sign with teams for a fixed length of time to provide entertainment services. Like actors, and musicians, etc... Lets not forget what this thing is. And sorry but Michael Vick is a lot more entertaining than at least 80% of the players in the league.

While whether his time in prison can count toward NFL mandated punishment is certainly debatable, to suspend a guy (first time offender) any more than 4 games for what he did is an absolute joke. Pac Man, Henry, and Marshall should have received lifetime bans long ago if Vick is "worthy" of any more suspension time.

I think GB would be great place for him. We have an unquestioned starter QB. We have an atmosphere where guys tend to stay out of trouble. If Vick isn't a starting QB (he won't be, at least right away, thus he'd have to take a shorter contract as a backup QB somewhere first), MM is easily in my top 3 of OC/HC's that would be able to get the most out of him as a backup QB. He would probably come very cheap relative to his quality (music to TT's ears), as he is a bit of a pariah (kinda like Koren was).

And Vick would be a very good backup QB, especially if there is a situation where he can heavily augment a pure passer backup. If we were to take him on, instead of moving one of the other QB's in a forced manner (poor trade value), I'd almost be inclined to skip on the 2 FB thing and replace 1 of the FB's with the X factor in Vick, and use Vick in place of one of the FB's in the same 2 FB formation. The stuff that MM could think up for Vick.....

Felony convictions are different than mis-demeanors and should be treated as such. While I whole-heartedly agree with your first statement (especially as it concerns Favre), this is an exception.

You can't always use the liberal bible of turning the other cheek and everybody deserves to be forgiven and given a second chance.

There are crimes that can never be forgiven and this is one of them. Michael Vick does not deserve another chance, and your Vick scenario in GB is freakin ludicrous.

And if you wanna take the emotion out and look at it as a pure football move, it's just plain stupid. I'm sure there are several dog owners on the Packers and no way a dog owner is gonna forgive and forget. Team chemistry is important.

[Waldo]

Re: Vick

There are crimes that can never be forgiven and this is one of them.

LOL, mmmk. Vick did not get into the bulk of his trouble for killing dogs.

Vick's rap sheet is not huge. It pretty much has 1 item on it. And the harshness of the sentence and his punishment by the league has absolutely nothing to do with dogs and everything to do with being the primary financier of an illegal interstate gambling ring.

The Golden Boy was only suspended for a year for betting ON FOOTBALL.

The next player to be suspended for a full season for non-drug related items was Pac Man in 2007, by then he had a huge rap sheet.

Do you boycott movies like Iron Man? After all, Robert Downey Jr's rap sheet is as long as all members of the 2006 Bengals team. Combined.

You can't always use the liberal bible of turning the other cheek and everybody deserves to be forgiven and given a second chance.

Bring back firing squads and massively expand capitol punishment. Break the law, off with their head. If people aren't worthy of a second chance, why keep them around? "Liberal bible"? Who's the extreme one here. "Liberal" nowadays means moderate right. "Conservative" means crazy looney bin right. True liberalism died long ago.

And if you wanna take the emotion out and look at it as a pure football move, it's just plain stupid. I'm sure there are several dog owners on the Packers and no way a dog owner is gonna forgive and forget. Team chemistry is important.

Absolutely retarded to put a guy on the roster that can out throw all of your backup QB's, and outrun every RB on the roster, that at one time was the highest paid and most exciting player in the NFL, that may have some skill degradation, but could be used as a backup player and paid backup prices, that is still relevant NFL age. Vick is one of the only players to ever suit up in the NFL that could actually generate all of a teams offense by himself, with absolutely no help from teammates.

Any team that at one time had or flirts with the idea of Brett Favre really doesn't care about chemistry either.

Ahman Green beat his wife. Many Packer players had wives and loved them. Chemistry is important.

You act like he'd be handed the keys to the team, and not be a backup player that gets in for a few plays here and there. Guys as important as and paid like Ruvell Martin don't screw with team chemistry. People have a problem with Vick, beat the crap out of him in practice.

[SkinBasket]

The NFL is full of free agent (independent contractors in a way) that sign with teams for a fixed length of time to provide entertainment services. Like actors, and musicians, etc... Lets not forget what this thing is. And sorry but Michael Vick is a lot more entertaining than at least 80% of the players in the league.

I would rather we focus on guys who are 80% more focused on playing winning football than guys who are 80% more entertaining in losing games and murdering dogs. I find winning entertaining so matter how fast the players run or how many tackles they evade before being sacked.

Not sure if that net 78% gain in entertainment over a player like Flynn would be worth the 96% more baggage and distraction than any other player he brings.

[Patler]

Re: Justice

IF there was any justice on this earth, anyone participating in dog fighting in any way shape or form, should be thrown into a cage with a lion or tiger and see what it feels like to be torn apart.

I hope Michael Vick dies a horrible death at some point in time.........

I understand your feelings about dogs, I really do. But ..... the being "torn apart" type of death is fairly natural in the animal world. Isn't that the exact way that most carnivorous animals feed themselves? That's what makes this activity so controversial. The participants argue that the dog fight is no different than what happens in the animal world constantly, one killing another in a vicious manner. In my mind what sets it apart is that humans do it for entertainment. But we have a long history of being entertained by the suffering of both animals and other humans.

[Waldo]

The NFL is full of free agent (independent contractors in a way) that sign with teams for a fixed length of time to provide entertainment services. Like actors, and musicians, etc... Lets not forget what this thing is. And sorry but Michael Vick is a lot more entertaining than at least 80% of the players in the league.

I would rather we focus on guys who are 80% more focused on playing winning football than guys who are 80% more entertaining in losing games and murdering dogs. I find winning entertaining so matter how fast the players run or how many tackles they evade before being sacked.

Not sure if that net 78% gain in entertainment over a player like Flynn would be worth the 96% more baggage and distraction than any other player he brings.

Do you have any idea what Vick's focus is? I would think that a second chance and a stepping stone contract (1-2 yr at vet min) to to prove to the rest of the league that he is a viable player is a chance worth taking.

Vick has won a lot of football games. Remember GB's first ever loss at Lambeau in the playoffs. That was Vick.

He isn't a pocket passer. Nor should he be made into one. MM has flirted with the wildcat in the past (he ran it with Brett and Driver). Vick is by far, heads and tails above all others, the best wildcat QB the NFL has ever seen.

MM has shown a penchant for exotic formations and exotic things. Vick wouldn't even have to take a QB roster spot. If I had to make a choice and could keep 2 between Kuhn, Hall, Moore, Butler, Humphrey, or Vick, and was keeping Johnson, Lee, and Finley, it really wouldn't be a question, Vick would be one of the ones kept unless he was an absolute shell of his former self.

Thing is, Vick's final offense, the WCO with ZBS running, is what we run. Vick wasn't and never will be in AR's league passing, nor probably Brohm or Flynn. But we run what he formerly ran, likely with very similar terminology (the Jags connection)

But it is not too hard to imagine our backups running a wishbone offense with a RB/FB and Vick in the backfield and a QB under center. When handing off/tossing to Vick (or faking), the S's and CB's cannot drop coverage on the WR's (LOL at double fake possibilities, Vick faking running it). You couldn't do this with Vick before because he cost too much. Now also you can use your QB as a weak lead blocker. You normally couldn't do this, but being a backup QB, the guy isn't priced out of that duty, and having 3 backup QB's, injury isn't the end of the world. The whole backup offense would be totally different than the starting offense and fairly sustainable, even with a less than susperstar QB.

Heck with AR we could run the Wildcat and a number of crazy variations (plus the wishbone, minus AR blocking unless it were the playoffs). AR is very athletic, and Vick has enough arm that AR would have to be respected far more than Chad was last year. Our our athletic OL is just meant for crazy wildcat variations.

[Fritz]

Here's what you do. Sign Vick up, and call it the "wild dog" instead of the "wild cat" formation.

Good pub for the dogs.

[Zool]

Here's what you do. Sign Vick up, and call it the "wild dog" instead of the "wild cat" formation.

Good pub for the dogs.

Or if he signed in GB, it could be the Dog Pack formation.

[SkinBasket]

The NFL is full of free agent (independent contractors in a way) that sign with teams for a fixed length of time to provide entertainment services. Like actors, and musicians, etc... Lets not forget what this thing is. And sorry but Michael Vick is a lot more entertaining than at least 80% of the players in the league.

I would rather we focus on guys who are 80% more focused on playing winning football than guys who are 80% more entertaining in losing games and murdering dogs. I find winning entertaining so matter how fast the players run or how many tackles they evade before being sacked.

Not sure if that net 78% gain in entertainment over a player like Flynn would be worth the 96% more baggage and distraction than any other player he brings.

Do you have any idea what Vick's focus is? I would think that a second chance and a stepping stone contract (1-2 yr at vet min) to to prove to the rest of the league that he is a viable player is a chance worth taking.

Vick has won a lot of football games. Remember GB's first ever loss at Lambeau in the playoffs. That was Vick.

He isn't a pocket passer. Nor should he be made into one. MM has flirted with the wildcat in the past (he ran it with Brett and Driver). Vick is by far, heads and tails above all others, the best wildcat QB the NFL has ever seen.

MM has shown a penchant for exotic formations and exotic things. Vick wouldn't even have to take a QB roster spot. If I had to make a choice and could keep 2 between Kuhn, Hall, Moore, Butler, Humphrey, or Vick, and was keeping Johnson, Lee, and Finley, it really wouldn't be a question, Vick would be one of the ones kept unless he was an absolute shell of his former self.

Thing is, Vick's final offense, the WCO with ZBS running, is what we run. Vick wasn't and never will be in AR's league passing, nor probably Brohm or Flynn. But we run what he formerly ran, likely with very similar terminology (the Jags connection)

But it is not too hard to imagine our backups running a wishbone offense with a RB/FB and Vick in the backfield and a QB under center. When handing off/tossing to Vick (or faking), the S's and CB's cannot drop coverage on the WR's (LOL at double fake possibilities, Vick faking running it). You couldn't do this with Vick before because he cost too much. Now also you can use your QB as a weak lead blocker. You normally couldn't do this, but being a backup QB, the guy isn't priced out of that duty, and having 3 backup QB's, injury isn't the end of the world. The whole backup offense would be totally different than the starting offense and fairly sustainable, even with a less than susperstar QB.

Heck with AR we could run the Wildcat and a number of crazy variations (plus the wishbone, minus AR blocking unless it were the playoffs). AR is very athletic, and Vick has enough arm that AR would have to be respected far more than Chad was last year. Our our athletic OL is just meant for crazy wildcat variations.

Do we play the unicorn at WR or TE? If he's at TE, where do we move the leprechaun? If we're changing offenses, bringing in another "ex" QB a year after the Favre fiasco, Vick is willing to play for cheap in a non QB role, the NFL reinstates him, no other team wants him, he's still the same athlete, he's still effective as a rusher/sometime passer/sometime receiver despite not having the advantage of being the primary QB, and GB is willing to ignore or deal with the negative publicity and traveling circus atmosphere this is going to attract the entire season and perhaps beyond, I figure we may as well go all the way.