What if this team goes 10-6?

[3irty1]

I'd want MM gone even if they went 6-2.

2007 is too far removed for me to remember my man crush for him. TT is more than safe in my opinion.

He shouldn't be. For such a great drafter, he has produced two red chip talents (Rodgers, Jennings) and a bunch of average to below average starters. His best two moves since joining Pack were signing Pickett (pro bowler this year, defensive MVP this year) and Chuck (Defensive MVP every year prior to this).

Thompson's guy are not looking good. Even my boy JJ looks like just a guy.

Scary thing is this... The guys we're relying on week in and week out to provide intensity and come in to bail us out are going to be gone soon. Chuck, Harris, Driver, Tauscher and Clifton are all near the end.

TT's best move to date is drafting A-Rod. Finding a franchise QB gives you a bunch of get out of jail free cards as a GM. Not that he needs them.

His drafting as been so so. He is over criticised for his lack of FA moves but the ones he makes seem to work out well. He seems to extend all the right guys and let the right ones walk. Financially he's a wizard. I'd say Ted has a few big successes and zero big mistakes. I think McCarthy is at least half to blame for any major holes in the team. I'd like to see Ted work with another coach.

A few things:

Way too soon to declare either of the quarterbacks franchise type QBs. Both have to win big games and show they can carry a team before they can even be considered anything more than average players. I'll give Flynn the benefit of the doubt as I think he's a gamer, but Rodgers hasn't shown me much to date. Many of my gripes are coming to fruition this season. He puts up nice, efficient stats, but the only stat I care about is the W, where he does quite poor.

I will get flamed to hell for this but I've heard rumbling of an eventual QB controversy. You heard it here first. Flynn has evidently looked awesome in practice as he is an innovator like Favre, and his arm strength is getting better to match his pinpoint accuracy. There is a growing school of thought that they found a diamond in the rough out of LSU.

Ted chose the coach and has to lie in the bed he made. I don't think he is a great coach either, but I don't think the guys drafted are particularly talented, either. Lipstick on a pig is still a pig.

I don't think he's a wizard financially. He overpaid and overvalued Ryan Grant big time. He overpaid for Rodgers at the time, but with QBs the cost is just gonna keep going up, so I guess it will look reasonable in a year or two.

I won't flame you for the QB controversy because I think you'll hear enough from everyone else. I will say that its going to take more than some JSO fluff pieces to give me a Flynn boner. I haven't seen him play but I agree he's already a good value from the draft. A-Rod is clearly much more proven and is already the centerpiece of the offense. For that reason he's a franchise QB at least in my book.

MM made sense at the time. He's great with QBs and his work is done in GB. His playcalling and coaching decisions concerning the OL have been in question for a while, I think its time for a change. TT isn't married to MM. I don't see why he shouldn't be allowed to make the switch.

Grant's contract is a reasonable one that the team can easily get away from although I agree that everyone thought he was a better player than he's been since holding out. A-Rod so far has been a steal. I like that TT is generous and fair with his guys. The Packers are always in cap heaven with TT. Financially he's done a very nice job.

[Partial]

I won't flame you for the QB controversy because I think you'll hear enough from everyone else. I will say that its going to take more than some JSO fluff pieces to give me a Flynn boner. I haven't seen him play but I agree he's already a good value from the draft. A-Rod is clearly much more proven and is already the centerpiece of the offense. For that reason he's a franchise QB at least in my book.


Grant's contract is a reasonable one that the team can easily get away from although I agree that everyone thought he was a better player than he's been since holding out. A-Rod so far has been a steal. I like that TT is generous and fair with his guys. The Packers are always in cap heaven with TT. Financially he's done a very nice job.

What has Aaron proved beyond showing some toughness this year and putting up nice yardage numbers with a very, very poor win-loss record? I'm legitimately curious and asking.

He has been a tough guy this year but that only gets you so far. At some point, you've got to elevate your team. Not necessarily fair, but its life as a QB. Play fullback if you can't handle it is my philosophy.

Rodgers has shown that he has the physical toolset to be an effective passer in the NFL. Flynn has not. That doesn't get you much though, until you become an effective winner. Flynn hasn't done this either. He is ahead of Flynn in that regard but again, what does this get you?

He's done an okay job because he's had only rookie contracts the past few years. They aren't going to have nearly as much cap room after this summer, for example, if they keep the two OLmen, Collins, Bigby, Kampman, Jolly, Chillar, TWill (I believe he is on a one year deal right now and becomes restricted now, not sure though) among others that I'm sure I'm forgetting.

It's not hard to be under the cap when you're a bad team. I'm not saying he's doing a bad job, I'm saying we don't have enough information to know how he is. I know that I would rather have the players the Vike's have and have their cap situation than have the players we do and ours. Again, not sure what that gets you, though.

[bobblehead]

Man, really? The optimism in this thread is intolerable. I don't think there is a snowball's chance in hell this team can go 6-2 here on out. This team has way too many problems...terrible o line, a non anticipative qb, no pass rush, bad offensive game planning, and a horrendous special teams outfit.

There is a whole lot of kool aid guzzling going on here.

Yes, its unheard of for a 4-4 midpoint team to finish 10-6...never happens.

Think before you type, most of us don't "expect" to go 10-6, but if you don't think its possible you are more deluded than those that think it is.

Given the schedule coming up and the fact we've not beaten a winning team since week 4 Indy last year (I have no idea if this is true, Bedard said this on the radio and I don't care to look it up), I don't think it's that unreasonable.

Ravens have had a much tougher schedule and look like an infinitely better 4-4 team than us.

Dallas looks light years better. They're OL is huge, Romo will have all day, and Rodgers won't have any time because there is a zero percent chance of having an banged up or misplaced tackle compete with DW.

Steelers are going to be damn near impossible to beat on the road. They've also won 4 in a row, including last night against the 6-1 Broncos. We haven't beaten a winning team, let alone an elite team in a long time.

Cardinals are clicking right now and look much faster and deeper offensively and better defensively as well.

We squeeked one out against the Bears when Cutler threw 4 picks. This was at home w/ two weeks to prepare. What are the odds we have a repeat performance, especially with Lovie having our number the past 5 years or so. I'd say slim.

I think they're going to drop those 5 for sure. The other games are debatable.

Thank you for this post, I agree wholeheartedly.

And Bobblehead your calling me out for being delusional. Please tell me you're kidding right? This team has no chance of going 6-2 here on out. I challenge you to give a little reasoning as to why you think it is instead of taking a swipe.

Again, like I said, I don't "expect" to go 6-2, but here is a little reasoning.

Forest Gregg once had a team that was 1-7 and looked like complete horseshit...they finished 8-8.

Last year the cardinals were 7-3, dropped 5 out of the next 7 and then ran the table to the superbowl.

2 years ago the giants were 6-2 at the midpoint then finished 10-6, then went on to beat the bucs, packers, and cowboys all on the road and then knocked off the perfect patriots to win the superbowl...in the regular season their record was 0-4 against the pack, cowboys and patriots.

I could continue with this all night, but I think its unquestionable that those of us that say it "could" happen are being much more realistic than those of you that say "no way in hell" it can happen.

Again is it likely...no, but its anything but a forgone conclusion that it can't happen....hell, in 2006 the packers were 1-4, then later 4-8 before running the last 4 and barely missing the playoffs....yea, not even possible they could suddenly click and finish 10-6....that kind of thing never happens.

Lesson over, go back to making outlandish statements then acting indignant when someone points out the extreme hyperbole you are using.

PS...If we do finish 10-6 I can't wait to hear how we didn't actually win 6 games, it was just that 6 teams played really bad and "gave" us a win.

[Waldo]

He overpaid and overvalued Ryan Grant big time. He overpaid for Rodgers at the time, but with QBs the cost is just gonna keep going up, so I guess it will look reasonable in a year or two.

I disagree with both of these sentiments completely.

Grant's contract can be looked at as a stopgap RB contract for a man expected to fully carry the load during that time. He isn't paid like a superstar, but he is paid fair for a 300+ carry/yr back that essentially touches the ball 30-40% of all plays. But he has no big bonus guarantee and the team has to reaffirm it each year after FA opens (with a roster bonus). We can easily dump him at any time. Thinking that you can pay him several million less because his average is 0.5 YPC subpar is simply foolish. That isn't how the NFL pay structure works. A guy gets paid for the work he does, and Grant carries 300+ times a season. Only a select few elite players get paid above the usual "starter" pay scale. Grant is not a RBBC back with us, we should expect to have to pay him more. But he is not paid "elite" money by any means.

Rodgers contract quite frankly is absurdly cheap for being early in a long term 2nd contract. The next deal is always bigger than the last in the NFL, average guys get this year what elite guys got last year. Rodgers gets peanuts compared to Cutler, Rivers, an E Manning.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

He overpaid and overvalued Ryan Grant big time. He overpaid for Rodgers at the time, but with QBs the cost is just gonna keep going up, so I guess it will look reasonable in a year or two.

I disagree with both of these sentiments completely.

Grant's contract can be looked at as a stopgap RB contract for a man expected to fully carry the load during that time. He isn't paid like a superstar, but he is paid fair for a 300+ carry/yr back that essentially touches the ball 30-40% of all plays. But he has no big bonus guarantee and the team has to reaffirm it each year after FA opens (with a roster bonus). We can easily dump him at any time. Thinking that you can pay him several million less because his average is 0.5 YPC subpar is simply foolish. That isn't how the NFL pay structure works. A guy gets paid for the work he does, and Grant carries 300+ times a season. Only a select few elite players get paid above the usual "starter" pay scale. Grant is not a RBBC back with us, we should expect to have to pay him more. But he is not paid "elite" money by any means.

Rodgers contract quite frankly is absurdly cheap for being early in a long term 2nd contract. The next deal is always bigger than the last in the NFL, average guys get this year what elite guys got last year. Rodgers gets peanuts compared to Cutler, Rivers, an E Manning.

Ty was going to start a thread about Arod's contract. While some may have thought Arod got paid too much and too early, compared to other young QBs...regardless of what Arod's critic's say...it is an absurd value.

As for Grant, many on this board were killing TT for sticking to his guns. They wanted him signed. Including MANY of the critics. Ty was not one of them. Ty thought Grant was a flash in the pan, another Terdell Middleton. Ty firmly believes that most, not all, good backs are found earlier in the draft..and that Grant was serviceable. His career was what it was prior to us for a reason.

You weren't on this board yet, waldo..maybe you were and ty doesn't remember, but there were people here that thought he was equal if not better than AD. Kid you not. People that actually prefered Grant...for whatever reason..salary cost, etc.

I had a bunch of posts here..but, it was so long and so classic, ty is gonna start another thread.

[Scott Campbell]

I won't flame you for the QB controversy because I think you'll hear enough from everyone else. I will say that its going to take more than some JSO fluff pieces to give me a Flynn boner. I haven't seen him play but I agree he's already a good value from the draft. A-Rod is clearly much more proven and is already the centerpiece of the offense. For that reason he's a franchise QB at least in my book.


Grant's contract is a reasonable one that the team can easily get away from although I agree that everyone thought he was a better player than he's been since holding out. A-Rod so far has been a steal. I like that TT is generous and fair with his guys. The Packers are always in cap heaven with TT. Financially he's done a very nice job.

What has Aaron proved beyond showing some toughness this year and putting up nice yardage numbers with a very, very poor win-loss record? I'm legitimately curious and asking.

He has been a tough guy this year but that only gets you so far. At some point, you've got to elevate your team. Not necessarily fair, but its life as a QB. Play fullback if you can't handle it is my philosophy.

Rodgers has shown that he has the physical toolset to be an effective passer in the NFL. Flynn has not. That doesn't get you much though, until you become an effective winner. Flynn hasn't done this either. He is ahead of Flynn in that regard but again, what does this get you?

He's done an okay job because he's had only rookie contracts the past few years. They aren't going to have nearly as much cap room after this summer, for example, if they keep the two OLmen, Collins, Bigby, Kampman, Jolly, Chillar, TWill (I believe he is on a one year deal right now and becomes restricted now, not sure though) among others that I'm sure I'm forgetting.

It's not hard to be under the cap when you're a bad team. I'm not saying he's doing a bad job, I'm saying we don't have enough information to know how he is. I know that I would rather have the players the Vike's have and have their cap situation than have the players we do and ours. Again, not sure what that gets you, though.

In retrospect I'd rather have the players the Saints have. Or Indy. In retrospect.

[Fritz]

And what if a monkey came flying out of TT's butt?

Actually, I don't think 10-6 is impossible. I believe we have the talent for even better. There is a chance that the team rallies around themselves and the coaches and they pull this season out.

I don't think that is very likely, however.

.

Then I would say "Monkey, can you coach?"

[3irty1]

I won't flame you for the QB controversy because I think you'll hear enough from everyone else. I will say that its going to take more than some JSO fluff pieces to give me a Flynn boner. I haven't seen him play but I agree he's already a good value from the draft. A-Rod is clearly much more proven and is already the centerpiece of the offense. For that reason he's a franchise QB at least in my book.


Grant's contract is a reasonable one that the team can easily get away from although I agree that everyone thought he was a better player than he's been since holding out. A-Rod so far has been a steal. I like that TT is generous and fair with his guys. The Packers are always in cap heaven with TT. Financially he's done a very nice job.

What has Aaron proved beyond showing some toughness this year and putting up nice yardage numbers with a very, very poor win-loss record? I'm legitimately curious and asking.

He has been a tough guy this year but that only gets you so far. At some point, you've got to elevate your team. Not necessarily fair, but its life as a QB. Play fullback if you can't handle it is my philosophy.

Rodgers has shown that he has the physical toolset to be an effective passer in the NFL. Flynn has not. That doesn't get you much though, until you become an effective winner. Flynn hasn't done this either. He is ahead of Flynn in that regard but again, what does this get you?

He's done an okay job because he's had only rookie contracts the past few years. They aren't going to have nearly as much cap room after this summer, for example, if they keep the two OLmen, Collins, Bigby, Kampman, Jolly, Chillar, TWill (I believe he is on a one year deal right now and becomes restricted now, not sure though) among others that I'm sure I'm forgetting.

It's not hard to be under the cap when you're a bad team. I'm not saying he's doing a bad job, I'm saying we don't have enough information to know how he is. I know that I would rather have the players the Vike's have and have their cap situation than have the players we do and ours. Again, not sure what that gets you, though.

If his W/L record is still shitty after 5 years then I might feel the way you do. Given the story of last year of an underachieving defense plus just plain rotten luck and the story this year of a putrid OL, I don't think a year and a half of samples is enough to diagnose A-Rod with loser-itis.

All the players going FA this year helps make the point. We are well prepared for an uncapped season should it happen.

I'm not sure I'd switch rosters with the Vikes. They are pretty stacked this year but you think OUR window is closing?

My point was that Thompson hasn't had a cap casualty of a guy we can't replace since he's started. Yeah it helps to be the youngest team in the league but no matter what we're in a position to extend any guys who actually improve or we can sign Reggie White the next time he's available.

[Partial]

I think our window slammed shut after 2007. I think they're rebuilding again.

[mission]

I think our window slammed shut after 2007. I think they're rebuilding again.

You have a very bi-polar view about all this ... are you saying Flynn could be like an Orton (+ mobility) and not nearly as physically talented as AR... just a winner?

I would buy the AR argument if not for the fact that the team as a whole has been underperforming. There's too many 'other things' going on during games that happens when AR isn't even on the field... ST gaffes, retarded 4 man collisions on defense, penalties ...

It seems to me like we're playing like a 4-12 team with 10-6 talent (not 14-2 talent yet) and the blame of that can be shared but when the TEAM itself ain't running on all cylinders, you'll find very few examples when the QB is singlehandedly compensating for so much ineptness around him.

Now all of this doesn't mean Flynn can't turn out to be a beast. Who knows... but it wouldn't take away from AR at all. We'd get a ton for him in a trade if that ever happened and it'd be FavreGate Part Deux for sure.

[Tony Oday]

Wow this is kind of funny how we are piling on AR here...REALLY? 3/4 of the teams would love him as a QB. There is no QB controvesey at all nor will there be unless AR gets hurt.

His O line is bad...but IMO you do not build an O line through FA you build them through the draft and the keep them at the same position for 2-3 years so they build that chemistry...if I was MM I would make sure the guys on the line LIVE together!

We have the talent to go 6-2 the rest of the year. We need a pass rush and to keep AR clean...do those two things and not get a crap penalty against us to keep a 4th quarter drive alive (Hawks "holding" penalty against the Bucs, though it should never have been that close) we can do it.

[sharpe1027]

Partial reads an article about player X (e.g., looking good in practice). Partial stretches of this little kernel of information into a position that will elicit a ton of responses (e.g., player X is better than player Y). Partial defends the position without any compromise. Partial complains about getting "flamed" and how everyone is against him. Week to week, day to day, Partial takes any opportunity to post anything that Partial believes to support any of the many controversial positions and to tell everyone else just how right Partial was.

If nothing else, it keeps the post counts high. Keep up the good fight Partial. I might just sit this one out.

[denverYooper]

Wow this is kind of funny how we are piling on AR here...REALLY?

[Spaulding]

I'm going to sound like the asshole here but I don't think MM is the answer regardless of what happens with the season and I don't want him hanging around another year no matter what.

What if the players take it upon themselves to step and actually play close to their ability? Is that because MM deserves his job? Unfortunately, that will be how it looks ...

I don't know ... I'll ALWAYS root for the Packers to win every game no matter what. I'm not *that* guy, but I don't want the truth to be clouded by temporary elation if we finish this season strong.

Are you adding yourself to a group like the TT "haters" that want the packers to do bad so he leaves? It sure sounds like it.......

I'm in the fire MM immediately and give TT one more year boat... I'm not nearly as supportive of TT as I have been in the past -- especially after some of his bonehead cuts look in retrospect -- but I firmly believe there's 10-6 / 11-5 talent on this team. They're just underperforming.

I don't think we have a roster as good as Minnesota's due to our inability to pull a big trigger, but maybe this season will be a wakeup call and we'll be a little more aggressive in the offseason (unlikely, I know).

TT hasn't assembled the best team in football, but I'd like a chance to at least see what this teams actual potential is before deciding it's not talented enough to compete. Those bodies on the line aren't a 6 sack a game offensive line... there's a lot of 'retardedness' going on and it starts with MM. His shit job just helps some of the shit flow up hill to TT ...

Mission, pretty much my sentiments as well although I'm not yet in the fire MM immediately, more so end of season unless the ship rights itself in a hurry.

I think finding a good head coach is easier to find and gauge than a good GM. Rating GM's is so subjective. Is the poor record due to personnel or due to coaching? That's the big debate because if the latter it's the GM and if the former it's the coach.

I'm of the firm belief that although TT has failed on some levels, that overall he's been a solid GM who hasn't made any bad FA moves or player contracts that have mortgaged our future and has done a good job of stocking the roster with enough talent to win.

Is it that the line is devoid of talent or simply that Campen blows? Also, for supposedly keeping certain players to strengthen the special teams it sure doesn't seem that Slocum is crafting them into something "special."

[Smidgeon]

Mission, pretty much my sentiments as well although I'm not yet in the fire MM immediately, more so end of season unless the ship rights itself in a hurry.

I think finding a good head coach is easier to find and gauge than a good GM. Rating GM's is so subjective. Is the poor record due to personnel or due to coaching? That's the big debate because if the latter it's the GM and if the former it's the coach.

I'm of the firm belief that although TT has failed on some levels, that overall he's been a solid GM who hasn't made any bad FA moves or player contracts that have mortgaged our future and has done a good job of stocking the roster with enough talent to win.

Is it that the line is devoid of talent or simply that Campen blows? Also, for supposedly keeping certain players to strengthen the special teams it sure doesn't seem that Slocum is crafting them into something "special."

If M3 goes at the end of the season (and personally not looking that far forward yet), it becomes paramount that TT finds someone who complements his GM style. M3 does not. TT needs to find someone who knows how to get the best out of what he has instead of someone who's modus operandi is just developing QBs and building a multiples offense.