Hawk taking heat in Green Bay

[mraynrand]

Again, I'm not saying he is an all-pro

baby steps, baby steps

Which 3-4 ILBers in the NFL can we compare Hawk too rather than just talking in the abstract?

I'd post a list of about 50-60 who are better, but why belabor the point?

[ND72]

Bishop wasn't a ton better than Hawk? Huh? Oh wait its the guy with the man crush on Hawk, didn't recognize you with the new avatar.

And I still do like Hawk, but I'm not immune to his down sides. I've always been very open to his struggles, and rarely will go far in his defense. Bishop had 30 more tackles, that is supposed to be. Capers has said from day 1 that one of his MLB is an "eater" (eats blocks) the other is a "beater" (makes the tackle), which is exactly what it has been under capers. Hawk plays the strong side ILB, and is supposed to take on blocks to create openings for Bishop to make the tackles. It's supposed to be that way. Bishop has 5 sacks to Hawks 1.5. Anytime the Packers ran their "Cross Mike" Blitz, Hawk leads taking on the blocks and Bishop comes around his butt in the open gap for the sack. That is the design of the play for Bishop. Neither of them had an Interception, so that is voided.

The fundamental reasons for our defense will naturally make one LB statistically better than the other...it's the way the defense is designed.

One year ago the only reason people praised Hawk was his leadership and being a general on the field. What's changed? Less talent on defense than we had last year with the loss of Collins, who called the DB coverage, which obviously lacked this year, and Jenkins in losing some pass rush.

Bishop performed no greater this year than last year, and neither did Hawk. If we're going to post something, lets be somewhat intelligent in the posting. McGinn, IMO, is kind of an idiot reporter anyway, so I tend to pay no attention to him, but I guess I've come to assume more intelligence on this board.

[ND72]

Damn well if we are unable to cut him hopefully some sucker will take him off our hands.

NFL rules are the same if you cut or trade a guy..guaranteed money is guaranteed money by the signing team. Still count $6.4 mil against. (I know others mentioned this as well...my bad)

[ND72]

If we pick Davis, history doesn't unfold as it does, so I'm not upset about it now (I was then).

That said, watching SF play shows you what real ILBs look like.

OH Patrick Willis...how I wanted you even when we were still running a 4-3...

[denverYooper]

You gotta love a thread where people are debating about exactly when Vernon Davis started crying seven years ago. Once Patler brings his evidence to bear from the Zapruder video, you'll know we've passed the Rubicon of offseason boredom lowpoints. And we're not even out of January yet.

People have an abundance of energy that they expected to carry through the playoffs. They have to expend it in some way.

[ND72]

I'm not sure if this has been said...and I like the guy, but what has Winston Moss done for Hawk or Bishop? Bishop showed up last year, but seem as though his play leveled off and didn't continue to grow into this year, as did Hawk. Maybe him leaving would help those guys and bring in a new face at coach.

[sharpe1027]

I know that everyone likes to rely upon "playmaker" ability, "impact plays" claims that others are "stupid," and allegedly 50 better players, but here is some where to begin a discussion based upon an analysis of players at a similar position.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d8208afee/article/willis-harrison-highlight-list-of-nfls-best-linebackers

Article by Pat Kirwan
Pat Kirwan began his NFL career in 1972 after coaching high school and college football. He spent eight years (1989-'97) with the New York Jets, beginning as a defensive assistant coach and advancing to director of player administration, where he negotiated contracts and managed the team's salary cap. Before his time with the Jets, Kirwan was an area scout for the Phoenix Cardinals (1989) and Tampa Bay Buccaneers (1983-'86).

The list has 20 players [***the article also lists the top ten OLBers, but I only pasted ILBers below***], which is only about 18 percent of the approximately 112 starting linebackers in the league. The result is a large number of players will end up in the honorable-mention category or nowhere on the list at all.

1. Ray Lewis, Ravens (v): It's straight to the Hall of Fame for Lewis, who still plays at a high level and has the most commanding presence on an NFL field. He was in on 139 total tackles in 2010 and had 2 sacks, 2 forced fumbles and 2 interceptions. His pass-coverage skills are not what they used to be, but still good enough to get the job done.

2. Jerod Mayo, Patriots (^): Led the NFL in the unofficial stat known as tackles with 175 last season. Mayo has great passion for the game, and he prepares like a young Lewis.

3. Lawrence Timmons, Steelers (>): Some would be surprised to see Timmons up this high, but he is overshadowed by all the great players on the Steelers' defense. Check his production in 2010 before you criticize this spot. Timmons had 135 tackles last year, 2 interceptions, 11 passes defended and 3 sacks. Time to recognize this young man.

4. Brian Urlacher, Bears (v): Is the heart and soul of the Chicago defense and possesses rare coverage skills. He struggles at times to disengage from blocks but still found a way to be in on 125 total tackles and deliver 4 sacks, 10 passes defended and register 10 tackles for a loss.


5. Patrick Willis, 49ers (>): Probably the best inside linebacker in the NFL. His 128 total tackles were overshadowed only by his 6 sacks, which was best among all inside linebackers.

GROUP B
6. Jon Beason, Panthers (>): A very smart player with a tremendous work ethic. Beason's ability to read keys and diagnose plays led to 121 total tackles, 8 passes defended, 8 tackles for a loss and 1 sack. He played without much talent up front last season and also lost fellow linebacker Thomas Davis to an injury.

7. Lance Briggs, Bears (>): Even Urlacher was quick to point out recently that Briggs doesn't get the credit he deserves for his excellent play. Briggs is a sideline-to-sideline, run-and-hit, weak-side linebacker who also is an excellent blitz rusher. He was credited with 89 total tackles in 2010 and had 7 passes defended, 2 sacks, 2 interceptions and 2 forced fumbles.

8. London Fletcher, Redskins (v): Fletcher, now 36, just keeps rolling along as one of the best at what he does. He was credited with 136 tackles last season, which is just another day at the office. He also defended 11 passes, which was better than Lewis and Urlacher.

9. Chad Greenway, Vikings (>): He plays the strong-side in the Vikings' 4-3 scheme and is as steady as they come. Greenway sees plays quickly and is rarely fooled by play-action. He was in on 144 total tackles last season, a big total considering he plays one side and teams often run away him. He also made 12 run stops behind the line of scrimmage last season.


10. Jonathan Vilma, Saints (>): The leader of the Saints' defense. Defensive coordinator Greg Williams has a complicated scheme, and Vilma's job is to quarterback the unit and make all the adjustments. He was in on 105 total tackles with a career-high 4 sacks in 2010. He had some competition for a top-10 spot from many on the honorable-mention list.

Honorable mention: David Harris (Jets), James Farrior (Steelers), Paul Posluszny (Bills), James Laurinitis (Rams), Curtis Lofton (Falcons), Derrick Johnson (Chiefs), Stephen Tulloch (Titans), A.J. Hawk (Packers).

[Brandon494]

That article is old as shit, I could tell that before even clicking the link.

[mraynrand]

He obviously likes Hawk better than Bishop. That's good enough for me. "Your eyes can deceive you, don't trust them."

[denverYooper]

The article was from June 29, 2011. I wonder if Hawk would still be on there?

[sharpe1027]

That article is old as shit, I could tell that before even clicking the link.

It's 6 months old. Thanks for taking 2 seconds to consider the issue. Fuck it. I give up on this discussion.

[smuggler]

Pat Kirwan is an Xs and Os guy, not really a personnel guy. The fact that he has Mayo above David Hawthorne (who is not even on his list at all) speaks volumes about the worthlessness of that entire article.

[Cheesehead Craig]

And I still do like Hawk, but I'm not immune to his down sides. I've always been very open to his struggles, and rarely will go far in his defense. Bishop had 30 more tackles, that is supposed to be. Capers has said from day 1 that one of his MLB is an "eater" (eats blocks) the other is a "beater" (makes the tackle), which is exactly what it has been under capers. Hawk plays the strong side ILB, and is supposed to take on blocks to create openings for Bishop to make the tackles. It's supposed to be that way. Bishop has 5 sacks to Hawks 1.5. Anytime the Packers ran their "Cross Mike" Blitz, Hawk leads taking on the blocks and Bishop comes around his butt in the open gap for the sack. That is the design of the play for Bishop. Neither of them had an Interception, so that is voided.

The fundamental reasons for our defense will naturally make one LB statistically better than the other...it's the way the defense is designed.

One year ago the only reason people praised Hawk was his leadership and being a general on the field. What's changed? Less talent on defense than we had last year with the loss of Collins, who called the DB coverage, which obviously lacked this year, and Jenkins in losing some pass rush.

Bishop performed no greater this year than last year, and neither did Hawk. If we're going to post something, lets be somewhat intelligent in the posting. McGinn, IMO, is kind of an idiot reporter anyway, so I tend to pay no attention to him, but I guess I've come to assume more intelligence on this board.

Well said ND.

[pbmax]

And I still do like Hawk, but I'm not immune to his down sides. I've always been very open to his struggles, and rarely will go far in his defense. Bishop had 30 more tackles, that is supposed to be. Capers has said from day 1 that one of his MLB is an "eater" (eats blocks) the other is a "beater" (makes the tackle), which is exactly what it has been under capers. Hawk plays the strong side ILB, and is supposed to take on blocks to create openings for Bishop to make the tackles. It's supposed to be that way. Bishop has 5 sacks to Hawks 1.5. Anytime the Packers ran their "Cross Mike" Blitz, Hawk leads taking on the blocks and Bishop comes around his butt in the open gap for the sack. That is the design of the play for Bishop. Neither of them had an Interception, so that is voided.

The fundamental reasons for our defense will naturally make one LB statistically better than the other...it's the way the defense is designed.

One year ago the only reason people praised Hawk was his leadership and being a general on the field. What's changed? Less talent on defense than we had last year with the loss of Collins, who called the DB coverage, which obviously lacked this year, and Jenkins in losing some pass rush.

Bishop performed no greater this year than last year, and neither did Hawk. If we're going to post something, lets be somewhat intelligent in the posting. McGinn, IMO, is kind of an idiot reporter anyway, so I tend to pay no attention to him, but I guess I've come to assume more intelligence on this board.

Well said. Not sure about Moss. But agree with everything else. Hawk has been far more consistent than our opinion of him. He really only changed from Year 1 to 2 which is nothing odd at all. Then a new system in 09. As I said before he could be upgraded esp. in coverage, but there are bigger concerns.

[pbmax]

I love how some of you can either completely over look reason because it goes against your argument, or you're too stupid to understand it.

Rule #3: Don't tell us we are dumb. Write a post and make the argument. (yes, I know there are only two rules)

You are one of the most insightful on this board; post like it Nutz. Don't let those who disagree trip you up.