Hawk taking heat in Green Bay

[SkinBasket]

So the coaches were wrong to phase him out?

I think you're making some rather large assumptions about the relatively small amount of time Hawk spent on the bench and/or had his playing time reduced, but I would also posit that he hasn't really had the same issue since, so perhaps if "phasing him out" was the intent of the coaching staff, which, again seems unlikely, then maybe they felt they were wrong.

[Deputy Nutz]

I'm obviously not the tactician you are, but my eyes keep showing me that Hawk seems slow, late, unable to disengage blockers, and can't seem to cover the Ballards of the world. Am I wrong that the defense seemed better with Francois in? And that when Hawk returned, the middle of the field was repeatedly exploited by Orton?

Even if Hawk is solid, there is no upside. I'd rather roll the dice with something new.

You are wrong, the defense didn't look better, you saw a guy drop into a zone coverage(covering space) and jump in the air and intercept a pass. He didn't have blanket coverage on any of his two interceptions, he was in space and the QB made an error in judgement. Francois took advantage.

Tell me how would you play when the whole right side of your defense collapses?
Hawk can't cover tight ends, but neither can Bishop, or Peprah, it is a serious flaw that gets the attention when their is no pass rush, and no Nick Collins. How was Woodson in covering tight ends this year? In reality Hawk and Bishop shouldn't be in on passing downs, it is a flaw I see in Capers system. Sure it works well when you have pressure and QBs don't have the time to wait on tight ends to get seperation, but that wasn't the case it got exploited this year, to everyone that was in coverage. Besides, if some of you actually watch the game and not just assume the guy that made the tackle is the one responsible for coverage you would see that half the time Hawk is covering the flat, or spying the running back coming out of the backfield.

I have blasted Hawk for his tackling in 2011, it was poor. He is usually a solid tackler and good at cleaning up the ball carrier. He has never been great in space, but he did a decent job in years past at finishing the play. But he was just like a pinball this season, bounce off ball carries, not wrappng up, and sometime just falling down. He has to get back to fundamentals.

I give Hawk one more season for the obvious salary cap reasons, I know some of you love to formulate ideas based on all the Madden you play, but in reality salary caps are part of the game, and the fact that Hawk has proved he can play at a solid level, especially when the defense has the proper pieces around him.

[Smeefers]

If I recall, he sat on the bench that first game because they spent the whole time in a nickel d and he wasn't slotted to be in on D on nickel, Barnett was.

[pbmax]

Even if Hawk is solid, there is no upside. I'd rather roll the dice with something new.

I agree with this. Although he is better in some areas than others and in coverage I would not describe him as solid. However, while Francois showed upside on coverage, he was also abused a few times, especially in his second game. He might get a shot with another offseason.

McGinn noted in the original article (or maybe the year end grades) that Hawk was torched by Sproles in opening week and Capers did everything he could to hide him after that. That is scout/GM/opposing coach speak for their grade on a player. It sounds all insidery and juicy. But most teams have one backer who is better in coverage than others and another who struggles more. And every offense tries to get the poorer coverage man in a bad spot. Its like finding a way to tell you its raining and making it sound like a conspiracy.

Robert forgot that Hawk was benched versus the Eagles last year for the same coverage problems. It isn't new. Everyone knows this but forgot after last years overall performance.

But I think Skin and Nutz have the basic point. While it is easy to say Hawk had a bad year, he has not changed all that much as a player. To have him as the poster child for what went wrong with the defense in 2011 is ignoring areas of bigger needs.

ILB is an area that can be improved. But it could be improved by carrying someone like Chillar or Francois and playing them in nickel or by finding a better natural mix of starters than Hawk/Bishop because there is not enough coverage ability there. And while Bishop might be capable, he is better attacking the LOS.

[Zool]

Has there ever been so much discussion about a decidedly average football player?

[Deputy Nutz]

Has there ever been so much discussion about a decidedly average football player?

Your mom was pretty average. Skin and I had a very long discussion about that.

[sharpe1027]

Has there ever been so much discussion about a decidedly average football player?

Jared Bush comes to mind.

[ND72]

I won't argue with any negative said about Hawk...he is who he is I guess. I just see a few things that bother me about our defense...#1, coaching. If the middle of the field is still wide open game after game, that is no longer on the player, that is on coaching. I may just be an OL/DL coach, and my years of film study is based aroudn that, but when I coach a kid, and someone is beating him on a move every play, that is my job to correct it. fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.

#2, lockout. Something altered our defense this year. Tramon was off, Chuck was off at times, Hawk was off, Matthews, while still solid, was off. Something was going on that we as fans couldn't connect the dots to. And I still get the arguement that by week 17 things should have been fixed, but obviously they weren't.

#3, Scheme. We saw less of they "psycho" defense this year, and more of the base 3-4 than the nickle that was used a lot last year. Our defense just seemed very vanilla and basic all year. Then when we realized we couldn't get any pressure, we tried blitzing more, which also didn't happen. One play in the Giants game that pissed me off beyond belief was when we brought 3 guys, dropped 8 into coverage, and Nicks was standing in the middle of the field wide ass open directly in between LB & S depths. What the hell? And it happened more than once, so again that brings me back to what are the coaches seeing and communicating to players on the field?

#4, players. I hate to keep bringing it up because it is a BS reason, but teams went after the DE/ROLB positions this year because we were horrible. AND, teams threw it at Tramon...ALOT. If not Tramon, then they threw it at Peprah...ALOT. Teams exploited our weaknesses almost weekly this year. That happened in 2009/2010 also, and we came back last year as a different defense. I hope the same is true in 2012/2013.

[Brandon494]

And then he was praised for leading the LBs on a league leading defense. I remember that.

Which was dumb as shit to even think that he was. Clay Matthews should have been DPOY last season but people want to give credit to Hawk just because he had the headset in his helmet.

[sharpe1027]

Which was dumb as shit to even think that he was. Clay Matthews should have been DPOY last season but people want to give credit to Hawk just because he had the headset in his helmet.

To my knowledge nobody has ever said that Hawk is in the same league as Clay or that Hawk should get credit for Clay's success. Reading comprehension, it's not just for 6th graders. :/

[Brandon494]

But I think Skin and Nutz have the basic point. While it is easy to say Hawk had a bad year, he has not changed all that much as a player. To have him as the poster child for what went wrong with the defense in 2011 is ignoring areas of bigger needs.

ILB is an area that can be improved. But it could be improved by carrying someone like Chillar or Francois and playing them in nickel or by finding a better natural mix of starters than Hawk/Bishop because there is not enough coverage ability there. And while Bishop might be capable, he is better attacking the LOS.

I know what the article was about but I don't think anyone thinks Hawk is the main problem on defense. Obviously pass rush and secondary are our main needs but that still doesn't take anyway from the fact that Hawk played worse then a 6th round rookie this season.

[Brandon494]

To my knowledge nobody has ever said that Hawk is in the same league as Clay or that Hawk should get credit for Clay's success. Reading comprehension, it's not just for 6th graders. :/

LMAO I like how you just burned yourself with that comment. Anyway pretty sure people gave credit to Hawk taking over for Barnett as the headset caller on defense like that was the reason for our defense playing lights out. Sure it had nothing to do with guys like Clay, Raji, Tramon, Woodson, Collins, Bishop, Jenkins, and Shields balling out last season.

[sharpe1027]

LMAO I like how you just burned yourself with that comment. Anyway pretty sure people gave credit to Hawk taking over for Barnett as the headset caller on defense like that was the reason for our defense playing lights out. Sure it had nothing to do with guys like Clay, Raji, Tramon, Woodson, Collins, Bishop, Jenkins, and Shields balling out last season.

Nobody is saying Clay's success was due to Hawk's play calling. Nobody is saying that Clay missed out on DPOY because Hawk was getting too much credit. Nobody is saying that Hawk is an all-pro. Nobody is saying that Hawk should not be replaced. Nobody is saying that Hawk has a big upside. It seems to me that the main disagreement is that some people think he's not the biggest problem and that the team would not be improved by cutting him, at least not until they're sure they have someone that can step in.

Why are you so set on dismissing such a relatively uncontroversial opinion?

[Brandon494]

See what I posted two post up, no one is saying he is our biggest problem but the guy sucks and hes overpaid.

[SkinBasket]

Why are you so set on dismissing such a relatively uncontroversial opinion?

Because he don't need no stats. He watched the games!





oh... and he's mildly retarded.