How Voters Think

[Harlan Huckleby]

how did this thread turn into a Partial blog? this cult of personality that has arisen is quite something, Partial is the new Barak Obama.

Yes he can! Yes he can! Yes he can! (No he can't! No he can't No he Can't!)

[Harlan Huckleby]

Working people don't deserve to live in those cool cities. They should only live in montana or the dakotas.

I don't know about the Dakotas, our own forum has a unpleasant record with Dakotans, but Montana is very cool. Beautiful country, lots of beautiful people escape there. I think working people should be settled in Indiana & Ohio where they can be with their kind.

[Scott Campbell]

I know a little something about being on the bottom and I can say, if you give those people just enough money to survive for free, they'll never wake up and do it for themselves.

While I don't think that is universally true, I do believe there is some truth there. At some point you are just enabling un-desireable behavior by making it easier to work the system than to work a job.

[Scott Campbell]

Partial, I don't think you & Scott Campbell & JustinHarrell understand the situations of poor people or working people. Your ideas are based on theory, and just don't match up with reality.

There is no way to convince you.

I doubt there is any way to convince you either. You're going to vote for whoever promises you the most "free" money, and complain about those who contribute 100x what you do to the tax base for having the audacity to keep any of their earnings.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I've seen both sides.

JustinHarrell, get your own thread to tell your story. This thread is for all things Partial.

[MJZiggy]

Who said anything about "giving them money?" And while you're talking about working the system, can you tell me how the system's working or are you criticizing based on assumptions or based on how the system worked 20 years ago?

[Harlan Huckleby]

Partial, I don't think you & Scott Campbell & JustinHarrell understand the situations of poor people or working people. Your ideas are based on theory, and just don't match up with reality.

There is no way to convince you.

I doubt there is any way to convince you either. You're going to vote for whoever promises you the most "free" money, and complain about those who contribute 100x what you do to the tax base for having the audacity to keep any of their earnings.

I like that "audacity to keep" part, makes me think of Barak's "Audacity of Hope" book. Maybe there is a book in it for you, if not a Presidential bid.

You speak in extreme stereotypes, like Rush, about the lazy poor and liberals who want free stuff from the government and confiscatory taxes for the doers. What would you think about getting beyond this silly name calling and talking about real policy?

Do you reject progressive taxes? Do you want rich and poor to pay the same tax rate? What do you think the facts are today? Do you really think the person earning $40,000 as a Radio Shack manager, working 60 hours per week, is paying a larger or smaller percentage of their income on taxes than you do?

[Scott Campbell]

I've seen both sides. My mom left my dad after they had 6 kids because he developed a serious drinking problem. He had everything going for him after highschool but he drank it away and my mom suffered. We grew up poor but my mom went to college (with 6 kids) with the help of my step dad at the time. She's now a nurse, making a good living doing well.

I never gave a shit about school. I remember in 6th grade, I aced the entry test for higher math. I've always clashed with athority so my two teachers accused me of cheating and then pronouced to the class that some other nerd was moving ahead to higher math because he cared about doing will. From there, I got filtered into basic math and was bored out of my mind. I just sort of showed up, did the minimum and got by.

Then came high school. I started using drugs and drinking regularly. I got through classes with passing grades for the first two years while I still attneded regularly. I wasn't dumb. I got A's on tests and finals. I just didn't give a shit. I really had no focus, nothing to live for. At one point, I thought about how little I had, and I said, I'm smart. I have that and with that, I always had hope that when I wanted, I'd make it happen for myself. I also grew up (before my dad went down hill) on a farm with a grandpa who worked his ass off every day. I was a hard and willing worker. Lazyness still bothers me today. Those two things probably saved me but anyway. . .

As my high school career developed, I started getting underage drinking tickets and racking up fines. I've never been lazy so I worked from age 15 and I've never stopped working (I'm 26 now). One day I got caught smoking by the police in "smokers alley". I had a tabocco charge. I missed the court date. I had just turned 17 and the police came, picked me up and brought me to jail. Not kiddy jail, big person jail. My mom never came to get me on a $50 bail. That was the semester I had decided to turn it around. I had all A's half way through the semester, I just wanted to prove to myself and everyone else that I was capable of all A's if I wanted them. Well, I missed 2 weeks of school before a teacher found out I was in jail. She bailed me out and offered to have me live with her. I was embarassed and really down on myself after spending time in jail. I didn't want charity. I said no. Had I said yeah, I probably would have been in college right after high school because with my ACT, and my guidance councelor filling out forms, I had scholorships and FA that would have paid my entire way with money on top for spending.

Eventually I did not graduate on time. I got called into the principals office with my mom. They told me that they wished they were as smart as me. They said my teachers all swore I could do anything I wanted. Proble was, I had a big time attitude against athority and I didn't give a shit about anything. He told me I should get my own buisness because it's going to be hard for me to work for people.

My mom kicked me out. I had just turned 18, had no high school diploma and didn't have a care in the world. There were nights where I didn't know where i was going to stay. I'd go to a friends window and he'd let me in. I'd go to my girlfriend and she'd sneak me in. Eventually I ran out of options but just then, I met the became friends with the neighborhood drug house. It was just pot mostly, but they were poor as dirt, living off SSI. The mom was a good hearted person though. She didn't even know me, but she wouldn't let me sleep on the street. I vowed to finish high school and I did.

I was still drinking and smoking pot every day. I worked at Wendy's this whole time. I had developed a method of skimming the till without the missing money showing up when they added up the accounting every night. They put me on register (big mistake) and I started my till skimming. Trhoughout the night as people ordered, if they ever ordered something off the .99 menu, I'd just pretend like I pushed the button and add it to their total. Instead of giving them their reciept, I'd throw it in the garbage and take the money that it should have costed if I punched it up correctly. I'd keep track of 20 of those each night and earn an extra 120 per week (I worked 6 nights). That worked out really well considering I had a ghetto appartment with my 17 year old girlfriend at the time.


Anyway, life went on like that. I eventually graduated highschool a year late, workign my way through. I had a friend of the family offer to have me come to GB. I was like "hell yeah". I left my girlfriend. We cried. It was tough. I didn't know anyone here. I stopped drinking. STopped using drugs. I got a job at a grocery store making $10 per hour. Seriously, to me that was a lot of money. I had no standards. I didn't even know how to pay a bill. My ghetto land lord used to just pick up the rent check. Luckily for me, I'm attractive to girls and noboyd knew me so I eventually met my current wife. She comes from a very normal family. They make good money, are very smart with their finances. Her dad is 53 and looking to retire.

She got pregnant. We decided to have the baby (a much bigger sacrafice to her than me). She had to quit school. I got a new job at a factory, then as a framing carpenter. Eventually, I sort of learned on my own and through my wife hot to do normal things that you guys all take for granted like pay bills or not be a fucking jack ass at work. If I was ugly as sin and stupid (sorry, but I think the only reason I was able to get jobs is becuase I never looked bad. It's sad, but I think it helped me). I guarantee a start like mine would have doomed most people. I'm the only one of my friends that I know that is having any level of success.

I was workign as a carpenter. I was happy with that. I talked my wife into having one more kid, then we could just raise our two kids togehter and put that long term commitment behind us. Well, just then I got in a fight with a coworker. I was fired from my job. I decided to go back to school. I got a job working till 1:00 AM. I was taking 12 credits and working 38 hours per week. I was sleeping 5 hours per night. I have always been in great shape phyisically from the work I did but with school, work and the two boys (I watched them on Friday's and Saturdays), I didn't have time to exercies. For the first time, I had a few extra pounds. I wasn't sleeping. I was sick at one point for about 4 month strait. I have pictures where I don't even look like myself of last year. I eventually got close enough were I cut out some insurances just to get through this last year. Now I work 16 hours per week and have 15 credits. I watch my boys 2 days per week but it's not bad at all right now. I just took the state entry test for engineering techs and scored number 1 state wide. I have interviews lining up.

I've decided I'm going to continue my education. I'm going to do it slowly though. I don't care if I'm not done till I'm 40, I just can't see me punching out numbers and inspecting work forever. It's already getting boring. I have some ideas, but I don't like to talk about them. I'd rather wait till it materializes and show people.

Everyone I know says they can't believe I made it out of my situation.

I had a few people througout my life that instilled just enough love and belief in me that I wasn't completely lost. I had a grandpa who was a farmer, then when farming went got tough in Aurora Wisconsin, 2 hours north of here (not as ideal for farming as GB), he went to Detroit, worked on machines and then built his own shop on his farm. I grew up there for the first 6 years of my life and visited until I was about 10. He'd work from 6 AM until 7 at night every day, often times on weekends. He was the person I most looked up to in my life and still is. (he died when I was 11).

He was a bit of a bad ass though. Apparently noboyd dared step foot on our property as he shot some guy in the 60's and claimed it to be an accident. That was when he moved to Detroit for a while, the neighbors I talk to now said he was laying low.

I got my work ethic from him and a little bit of the crazy streak too. I once had a few thousand dollars owed to me (just before my 2nd child) and lets just say I got it back the old fashioned way and I didn't sleep to well because I was wondering if I'd be woken up by the police taking me to jail. I had it all figured out though. I didn't do anything that was against the law or make any direct threats. I just got my money back and it looked like I was crazy. No crime in that

Anyway, here I am. I'm not in jail. I'm about to get a good job. I don't particularly relate well to people because of what I've been through. Most of the people I associate with today (all of them acctually) are completely the opposite of what I was. Nobody (except my wife) even knows the details. In fact, this will be one fo the first times I've really talked about it in a long time. It acctually feels good ot get it off my chest.


Feel free to judge me. That's fine. I had a tough up bringing and experienced some tough situaitons. Know what though, I take time every day and I look at my boys and almost cry because they are so wonderfull and they do not have to experience anything that I did. I have every intention to make a success out of my life and have security and as poor as we've been, we have money flwoing into our 401K's and IRA's for the last 5 years and it's starting to acctually mean something now.

I know a little something about being on the bottom and I can say, if you give those people just enough money to survive for free, they'll never wake up and do it for themselves. Sorry for rambling on, but my belief in earning what you get in life deosn't come from the perspective of someone who's living at home going to platteville. It comes from someone who was given nothing but a kick out the door and a few articals of clothing at age 18 and has made everything I have with the help of my wife and the inspiration of my kids.



Oh, and I'll say this. As a person who was just scraping by off a fast food job and embessling money, I can say that I believe the #1 reason people are poor is becuase of their up bringing. If they are not taught how to live, it's a bitch to learn at age 18 on your own. I consider myself a pretty smart guy, but there was a time when I didn't even know how to pay a bill. Big deal, right. A bunch of kids don't when they're 16. Well, I was 18, on my own and I had bills. I took my breaks and got out. I can understand if some people never do though. Even still, I don't believe they deserve free money. We are survivors. They will find a way and through that, they will become more than they knew possible. Give people just enough to survive and they will in the lowest of low with no pride in themselves. It's really a sad place to be in my opinion.

I don't feel bad for them though. They have to pick their heads up and make it happen. I could be sitting in jail or working at McDonalds. Instead I took every break, worked my ass off and made it happen.

Great story Nick. I'm not very religious, but I too have a belief in the "teach a man to fish" school of thinking. That truly helps people. That is not giving away "free" money, but rather (much like education) is truly an investment in people that stands a chance of paying dividends over time.

[Scott Campbell]

Who said anything about "giving them money?" And while you're talking about working the system, can you tell me how the system's working or are you criticizing based on assumptions or based on how the system worked 20 years ago?

I work under the "assumption" that the government is extremely inefficient, and often corrupt. Put a dollar in, and watch it shrink to a nickel by the time it comes out the other side and goes to those they intended to help. I don't believe the government should be in the retirement planning business - Social Security - because they will screw it up.

I still believe in trickle down economics, and think the 80's investment tax credit programs spawned unprecedented start up business, job creation and spending that fed our economy for decades. So if Ronald Reagan was an extremist, then I guess I am too. The naturally occurring tax base that this type of policy creates is far more valuable than raising taxes so the government can fund additional programs.

The poverty described here is a social problem. I don't believe the government is responsible for solving all social problems with mandatory tax increases. I don't believe the government is capable of solving all social issues with mandatory tax increases.

[Scott Campbell]

Do you really think the person earning $40,000 as a Radio Shack manager, working 60 hours per week, is paying a larger or smaller percentage of their income on taxes than you do?

The Radio Shack manager is paying a larger percentage of their income on taxes than I do. They're also paying a higher percentage of their income on gas too. So in the spirit of our progressive tax code, maybe we should start another government program so there is a sliding price per gallon at the pump based on their ability to pay.

[RashanGary]

I think people are strong overall. Maybe someone isn't as smart or talented as the next guy, but hard work is more important than just about any natural gift. Any of us can do just about anything we want.

What inspires people to achieve? If someone is lacking a base in common sense, what motivates them to make it better? I believe the will to survive and reproduce is the strongest trait just about every person has. I believe the best solution to the poverty problem is to use what just about all people naturally have. Set up a situation that survival isn't given. You think people are going to drop dead? NO!! They will work their asses off and through the hard work and structure they start devising ways to make it even better. Maybe they'll never get out of their hole but by working to earn everything they have they'll learn common sense. They'll see how the people who got futher made it and they'll tell their kids "hey, I worked harder than I had to and ended up with less than a bunch of people. I'll tell you what, son, you shoot for the stars and do whatever you want in life. If you work your ass off to get there and it iwll happen." Then his kid grows up inspired to achieve and in one generations time, that families problem is solved and all we did is let him do what he was born to do, survive.


The answer is not pity or condecention (if that's a word). Awwww, those poor people, they don't know any better. They have it so hard. They're black. They're poor. Blah blah blah. Know what I say, I say they're strong. They'll make it and in 20 years, their kids will take your kids job because they are inspired to make their lives the best it can be and are willing to work tirelessly to get it. If you're in the middle or upper middle class, you should be happy for these programs. These programs insure people will never learn and by never learning, you (and yoru kids) will have less competition for jobs. I care about poor people though and by caring, I don't mean I pity them and want to hold down. What I mean is I understand they don't know but I believe they are strong enough to learn.

[Scott Campbell]

I like that "audacity to keep" part.....

Just so we are clear, I am a proponent of people keeping more of their own earned money, and spending and investing it as they see fit.

You are for the government taking it away, involuntarily and without permission, so that elected leaders like George Bush and Dick Cheney can take care of us all by spending or investing it as they fit.

[Scott Campbell]

You speak in extreme stereotypes.......

Well there you go again, trying to tie me to Rush with more rhetoric.

Sometimes people end up where they are in life by accident. But many of us end up where we are in life because of choices we make. Poverty is not always accidental. Wealth is not always accidental.

I think your views on big government are in perfect alignment with your previous difficulties in the forum regarding accepting personal accountability.

[Harlan Huckleby]

The Radio Shack manager is paying a larger percentage of their income on taxes than I do. They're also paying a higher percentage of their income on gas too. So in the spirit of our progressive tax code, maybe we should start another government program so there is a sliding price per gallon at the pump based on their ability to pay.

If you recognize that lower income people are paying a higher percentage of taxes, than what is your complaint? Why shouldn't people at the bottom want to change the system to get richer people to pay a fairer share?

I would be satisified with a flat tax rate because the reality of our so-called progressive taxes are so regressive.

[Harlan Huckleby]

You speak in extreme stereotypes.......

Well there you go again, trying to tie me to Rush with more rhetoric.

Sometimes people end up where they are in life by accident. But many of us end up where we are in life because of choices we make. Poverty is not always accidental. Wealth is not always accidental.

I compare you to Rush just because you sound so similar.

I have ZERO interest in demonizing the poor or wealthy. In order to talk about a more fair, transparent system, you have to strip away all that rhetoric.