A reason to vote for Obama

[mraynrand]

You know, it's funny how some of these people think we should slice up the golden goose into little pieces so that everybody can have their fair share. The problem is, it ain't going to lay anymore golden eggs if you kill it.

MMMMMMMmmmmmmm...Golden Goose. My one weakness!

[digitaldean]

I moved my family half way across the country so my wife could attend law school. She's in her third year, and will graduate in May 2009. We will spend in excess of $125k on her law school education. This doesn't include the costs of her bachelors degree and her masters degree.

So, considering your rant from above, I'm GREEDY? WTF?

I'm not "entitled" to keep what I earned and what I risked? Are you crazy? Maybe you should move to Switzerland, or Denmark. wealth redistribution seems to work out ok over there.

I give more to charity each year than I made annually my first three years out of school. I tithe faithfully to my church. I volunteer my time in Christian and non Christian events in my community. I'm a 10 gallon blood donor. I serve on local boards. And I'M GREEDY? <sigh>

You sir, are completely NUTS. If the rest of the world feels like you do, yes, we're screwed. But if you, and the rest of the $50k wage earners would get OFF THEIR ASS instead of looking for a damn handout, we might get somewhere in this country.

Christ. I'm off my soapbox now.

RG,

Thank you. Work hard, spend less, tax less, be responsible yourself to get ahead and don't depend on the gov't? These words are anathema to liberals or those who don't have the drive to get ahead.
I still work 2 jobs and actually live on a budget to make sure my family gets what is needed. I swear I'm gonna wretch if I hear someone clamor for another federal stimulus check.

[Freak Out]

Major circle jerk going on here.......

Liberals don't have the drive to get ahead? Come on man.....you are smarter than that....you are right?

[texaspackerbacker]

Re: A reason to vote for Obama

Well after reading these and other arguments for the last few weeks/months, I have changed my mind and will vote for Obama.

After Obama beat Hillary I was all for Mcain, but the only thing I ever hear from Mcain/repub voters is "my money, my money, me,me,me"
Enough is enough, its time to start ponying up for anybody who makes more than $90,000/yr.

Most people around here raise families on between $30-75,000/yr. and the ones making $75 are considered to be living the good life.

You people(greedy) may not like it, but Obama's gettin in and its gonna happen. Time to start taking care of each other as a whole society.

Btw, people making less than $50,000 working in retail and service are on their feet working their asses off for 10-14 hr shifts. Thats who I'm voting for.

Well, gex, I'm tempted to take your post and rub Howard's nose in it, along with a couple of other "fairness" Republicans whose piss poor rhetoric plays right into the hands of the "class warfare" crap promoted by Obama and company.

Instead, however, I will accuse you, gex, of being similar to so many you see in these focus groups or whatever--disingenuous people claiming to be undecided or even leaning toward McCain--but wait! They/you have seen the light! Suddenly, Obama goes from being "that one" to "THE One".

A big YEAH RIGHT to that!

Your posting history belies your previous pro-McCain claims.

[digitaldean]

These words are anathema to liberals or those who don't have the drive to get ahead.

FreakOut,

Read the post. It says liberals OR those who don't have the drive. Yes, there are plenty of liberals who have the drive to succeed. Partial's idol, Steve Jobs or MS's Bill Gates are prime examples of social liberals that are pretty driven individuals.

Saying that liberals don't is equivalent to saying conservatives are all greedy and don't care about their fellow man.

The idea of "fairness" in the politcal arena has always come under the guise of handouts from the gov't. Given the current horrid spending record in D.C., I don't trust either party as far as I can throw them. So the less they have a hand in the regulation/taxation of the small business sector (except for worker / consumer safety) the better.

[RashanGary]

I lean toward less taxing, but there is a point where I believe wealth begets wealth to a point where a person is no longer really "earning" their money, but rather just watching it roll up while others have to scratch to get there. REally though, I think RG is right here but misdirected. He did all of this in a tax curved society with social programs. NOthing even close to a flat tax nation. I believe a majority of the very wealthy were buisness owners and self made. My grandpa was a farmer, then owned a shop. He did pretty well, but worked his ass off his whole life. I've always looked up to him and tried to mimic his work ethic. I believe if there was just a flat tax, things would slowy, at first, transfer from the hands of the many to the few. Eventually the many would be borrowing from the few, with the few having all of the power and when the borrowing snowballed so far it would all blow up.


I'm cool with everyone earing their money so long as the path to the top is very possible and the path from the top to the bottom is very possible. When those who work hard and make good decisions are not rewarded, there is a problem. When those who do nothing get rewarded there is a problem.

I think the Obama is stealing from the rich to give to the poor drama is overplayed. He wants it to be just as easy for a kid from a poor family to get a college education as a kid from a wealthy family. The cream will rise to the top. Nothing wrong with that. I don't even have a problem with health care being made more affordable to all so long as it's kept private and not govt run. Right now those who need health care will get it if they show up to a hospital and need care (regardless of if they can pay or not). If they do not pay, we all do anyway. What's the difference? Just makes it less expensive for a typical family.

As much as conservatives swear up and down a tax curve ruins our society, look around. We've had it since FDR and all we've done is prosper like no other as do most of the other nations with a similar form of government.

Here's a list of countries with flat taxes

Bulgaria [15]
Albania [16] [17]
Czech Republic[18]
Estonia [19][20][21]
Georgia [22][21]
Guernsey [23]
Kazakhstan [24]
Iceland [25] [23] [26] Iceland's system differs from the Hall-Rabushka flat tax by taxing investment income and allowing numerous exceptions.[27]
Iraq [28] [29] [30] It is not clear how effectively the Iraqi tax is being collected in practice.
Jersey [31]
Kyrgyzstan [23]
Latvia [21]
Lithuania [32][21]
Macedonia [33] [23]
Mongolia [34]
Montenegro [35]
Mauritius [23]
Romania [21]
Russia [36][21]
Serbia [37]
Slovakia [21]
Ukraine [38][21]


Not exactly your who's who of prosperous nations. You see a lot of corruption and extreme numbers of very very poor with very small numbers of very very rich. If you start at the bottom in these countries, there you are. Not exactly your "get what you put in" utopia. Very similar to what happened to our country in the great depression. More like extreme poverty with almost no way out. Our system right now is the socialist curve and it has allowed poeple like RG to work his way to the top. Nothing wrong with that.

Obama wants to make sure our governmetn isn't like one of thse. He wants the spot we end up in life to be indicative of our capabilities and drives, not based on where our parents start us off. That's pretty much how it is now and he's pretty much holding status quo with some economy stimulating and opportunity expanding quirks.

[mraynrand]

I swear I'm gonna wretch if I hear someone clamor for another federal stimulus check.

Start wretching. It's already in the works. The Dems are writing up a 300 Billion dollar stimulus package so that it will be ready for Obama to sign next January. With a filibuster proof Senate, they will shove it right down their throat, and there's nothing you can do to stop it. Oh, wait, you can vote for Bob Barr. That will work.

[RashanGary]

I swear I'm gonna wretch if I hear someone clamor for another federal stimulus check.

Start wretching. It's already in the works. The Dems are writing up a 300 Billion dollar stimulus package so that it will be ready for Obama to sign next January. With a filibuster proof Senate, they will shove it right down their throat, and there's nothing you can do to stop it. Oh, wait, you can vote for Bob Barr. That will work.

[bobblehead]

Well after reading these and other arguments for the last few weeks/months, I have changed my mind and will vote for Obama.

After Obama beat Hillary I was all for Mcain, but the only thing I ever hear from Mcain/repub voters is "my money, my money, me,me,me"
Enough is enough, its time to start ponying up for anybody who makes more than $90,000/yr.

Most people around here raise families on between $30-75,000/yr. and the ones making $75 are considered to be living the good life.

You people(greedy) may not like it, but Obama's gettin in and its gonna happen. Time to start taking care of each other as a whole society.

Btw, people making less than $50,000 working in retail and service are on their feet working their asses off for 10-14 hr shifts. Thats who I'm voting for.

This is probably one of the most uninformed posts related to government and financial matters that I've ever read.

Do you think that I just got things handed to me in my life?

For heavens sake. My father was a beautician and my mother was a housewife. My parents paid $18k for their first house in 1976, and I worked my ASS off in school for scholarships. I spent $60k on a bachelors degree from the University of Wisconsin, and well in excess of $100k for a Masters degree from Columbia. I studied and studied and studied to pass the CPA exam.

Then, I quit my job in the oil industry and opened a retail store. I grew three concept retail stores from one little mall kiosk to 14 stores in 5 years working 70+ hours a week including weekends and holidays. I put up with countless hours of crap from uninformed people, and hired those very uneducated workers you talked about Gex. 3 weeks after they were working for me, they thought they knew how to run my business better than I did. After 7 years of that, I sold the business, and made a down payment on a tax practice.

I ran that practice jointly with a parter for 5 years, and we doubled the size of that practice, working an average of 80 hours per week. When I sold back to my partner, we were doing more tax returns out of tax season than we were during it....

I moved my family half way across the country so my wife could attend law school. She's in her third year, and will graduate in May 2009. We will spend in excess of $125k on her law school education. This doesn't include the costs of her bachelors degree and her masters degree.

So, considering your rant from above, I'm GREEDY? WTF?

I'm not "entitled" to keep what I earned and what I risked? Are you crazy? Maybe you should move to Switzerland, or Denmark. wealth redistribution seems to work out ok over there.

I give more to charity each year than I made annually my first three years out of school. I tithe faithfully to my church. I volunteer my time in Christian and non Christian events in my community. I'm a 10 gallon blood donor. I serve on local boards. And I'M GREEDY? <sigh>

You sir, are completely NUTS. If the rest of the world feels like you do, yes, we're screwed. But if you, and the rest of the $50k wage earners would get OFF THEIR ASS instead of looking for a damn handout, we might get somewhere in this country.

Christ. I'm off my soapbox now.

sounds like you got lucky...and like gex said, you need to start helping out the less fortunate.

[texaspackerbacker]

I lean toward less taxing, but there is a point where I believe wealth begets wealth to a point where a person is no longer really "earning" their money, but rather just watching it roll up while others have to scratch to get there. REally though, I think RG is right here but misdirected. He did all of this in a tax curved society with social programs. NOthing even close to a flat tax nation. I believe a majority of the very wealthy were buisness owners and self made. My grandpa was a farmer, then owned a shop. He did pretty well, but worked his ass off his whole life. I've always looked up to him and tried to mimic his work ethic. I believe if there was just a flat tax, things would slowy, at first, transfer from the hands of the many to the few. Eventually the many would be borrowing from the few, with the few having all of the power and when the borrowing snowballed so far it would all blow up.
.

Justin, what you are describing is a ZER0-SUM situation, also known as STATIC ANALYSIS. A Free Enterprise Capitalist economy is NOT statis. It is DYNAMIC.

Zero-Sum is like a pie, where if one person's piece gets bigger, other people's pieces necessarily have to get smaller. That's just NOT the way it is in our economy. There is DYNAMISM. If Bill Gates or Stever Jobs or your grandfather or corporate America get richer, there is plenty of opportunity for everybody else to succeed too and enhance their own wealth.

That's the way it is supposed to work. That's the way it DOES work--if the damned liberals just don't get in the way with tax increases or contrived "crises".

[bobblehead]

JH...what "progressive" tax rate is too high? 100%..90...80, throw out a number. You can cite poor corrupt countries all you want, but more than a tax structure goes into prosperity.

Let me state this one more time...many accurate economic studies have conclude that the top marginal rate should be 19% and anything at any level after that has negative consequences on jobs and growth. That is an economic fact. So bottom line is this...it doesn't matter how many people pay 0, 10 or 15%, the minute you go over 19% its a net negative.

So vote for obama if you think punishing those making over 90k is somehow going to make your life better (hint, it won't). Vote for mccain if you like the direction the republican brand has been heading (hey, they managed to spend enough to lose their majority). Me, I'm looking to the future, but more importantly I have already begun working on opening part of a business in thailand because taxes and labor are much friendlier to me here....but hey, I don't currently make over 90k taxable so I'm one of the good guys.

[mraynrand]

Me, I'm looking to the future, but more importantly I have already begun working on opening part of a business in thailand because taxes and labor are much friendlier to me here....but hey, I don't currently make over 90k taxable so I'm one of the good guys.

Just don't try to bring any of that Thai shit back here, or Obama will tax the hell out of it!

BTW, you opening a brain surgery clinic? Ty has his $2500 first class air ticket ready to take advantage of those reduced Thai healthcare rates.


EDIT: P.S. good luck with your new business. Hell of a time to start!

[RashanGary]

I believe education should be free as long as you're pulling grades. I believe health care should be affordable for all working Americans. If I have to pay a little extra, I'm happy to do it. I'll vote Obama.

However, I'm not a fan of raising taxes (or even having taxes) on buisness and industry that does it's buisness in the global market. I believe every dollar we take from China, Europe or Russia's economy and put into ours is a dollar that makes all of us better. If people get filthy rich by selling stuff to other countries, GREAT!!



I believe the, "a progressive tax stops people from getting to the top" arguement is just BS. Ever since we've had a progressive tax, all we've done is watch Americans rise from severe poverty to the top of our nations economic ladder. It's a proven, effective systsem. The last time we had a flat tax we crashed right into the great depression. If you were at the top, there you were. If you were at the bottom, there you were. No matter how hard you worked. The countries that run it now are poverty stricken. It's not nearly as great in practice as it is in theory but go ahead, beat yoru little drum. Obama is going to win and that's that. Deal with it.

[mmmdk]

Re: A reason to vote for Obama

Btw, people making less than $50,000 working in retail and service are on their feet working their asses off for 10-14 hr shifts. Thats who I'm voting for.

Those are called college students, college dropouts, and high school grads. Your reasons on voting for Obama are laughable. In Rhinelander, the only people who make decent money are small business owners and contactors/tradesman. You more than most people should know what Obamas tax policies will mean to your local economy

I get you, GoPackGo, you're a 'ME' guy, you're not a 'team world guy' - I drink California Zinfandel to your personal downfall. Harsh words, I know, but I just believe karma will prevail.

47 mill., 47 mill people that is...

[Fosco33]

Re: A reason to vote for Obama

47 mill., 47 mill people that is...

45M uninsured, 25M underinsured - population of 301M = 26%

The current definition of underinsured uses varying rules - like spending 10% of income on hc - or having deductibles of 5% of income (some due to outlier cases by year and some due to high deductible plans).

Of the uninsured - 41% are between 19 and 34 - when young people are not covered by parents or the State (usually) and don't get jobs (that come with insurance). Part of being responsible is getting a job.

21% are under 18 and could be eligible for most state/local coverage. Some of these are poor kids with ignorant/lazy parents that don't apply for Medicaid. Part of being a responsible parent.

Also - 28% of uninsured are in 300%+ FPL brackets - and not 'poor' and could afford employer provided insurance - their choice/responsibility.

And lastely - 21% of uninsured are not US citizens! And even then there are programs like CMS 1011 that provide coverage - and again EMTALA that provides ER service without questions.

You can't double count the above stats - but it clearly shows there is a small window of opportunity for society to further assist on insurance coverage. Young people without insurance (not kids) don't use much/any hc and the outliers are often covered by charity. And those that are uninsured may get charity (typically 3-5% of hospitals gross charges are written off to charity).

It's a 'problem' by definition only in my book. Many of the solutions go back to responsibility.