Father of the Year

[MJZiggy]

That's ridiculous. The girl had been previously grounded for 3 months for doing something similar. The father warned the girl of worst consequences if she did it again. She did it again and thought she would get away with it by blocking out her parents. She was wrong.

He starts out the video by saying it was for Hannah, her friends that think her posts are cute and parents, who might not be aware of what children are negatively posting about them. So it's about his ego? Give me a break! It's called being a father, and a good one at that. He's making good on his threat while at the same time shaming his spoiled daughter in the same exact method that she had disrespected her parents.

Even the ex-wife, the girl's mother was in agreement with the punishment ("put a bullet in there for me too").

What does it gain over direct interaction? A video posted by the dad on his daughter's Facebook page without her knowledge or permission is more powerful than direct interaction. The direct interaction is going to occur anyway, after the fact. Besides, they tried that before and she did not listen.

Kids are so emotionally tied to their Facebook pages and dad hit her where it hurts. She tried to outsmart him, block him out, hide her posts, one of which is entitled, "To My Parents" where she trashes them. Instead, ole dad demonstrates to her that he is not as stupid as she thinks he is and takes control of her Facebook page. The man is teaching his daughter a lesson that she will never forget.

Since she tried to trick them again and failed, maybe it's time for her to actually start to OBEY her parents. What a novel concept. Is really doing 10 minutes of household chores a day without complaining about it too high a bar for a teen in 2012?

The dad doesn't think so and he helped to give her an attitude adjustment is a very dramatic way.

And, yes, MJZ, Hannah does need a new computer and should get one AFTER she apologizes for her attitude and disobedience. The man obviously loves his daughter and I'm sure he will be quick to forgive her when she demonstrates some maturity and takes responsibility for herself.

But earlier in this very quote, you suggest that he made a threat and then followed up which was good parenting. In the video he most clearly states that she will not have another computer until she buys it for herself AND reimburses him for the software upgrades he just did. Therefore, by your own statement, to replace the computer after having said that would be bad follow up and bad parenting. He may forgive her. Do you think that if she apologizes to get a new computer that it will be genuine? If so, why? And while he's forgiven her, how long will it be before she forgives him? I don't see humiliating your child as a huge act of mature love. And I don't see impending maturity in this angry girl because the father she's already pissed off at escalated the situation. Humiliating her will not make her less angry. You do realize that children learn best not by punishment, but through positive reinforcement, right? I'm willing to go out on a limb and say she wasn't raised with much of that.

[Kiwon]

But earlier in this very quote, you suggest that he made a threat and then followed up which was good parenting. In the video he most clearly states that she will not have another computer until she buys it for herself AND reimburses him for the software upgrades he just did. Therefore, by your own statement, to replace the computer after having said that would be bad follow up and bad parenting. He may forgive her. Do you think that if she apologizes to get a new computer that it will be genuine? If so, why? And while he's forgiven her, how long will it be before she forgives him? I don't see humiliating your child as a huge act of mature love. And I don't see impending maturity in this angry girl because the father she's already pissed off at escalated the situation. Humiliating her will not make her less angry. You do realize that children learn best not by punishment, but through positive reinforcement, right? I'm willing to go out on a limb and say she wasn't raised with much of that.

The girl is a spoiled teen, a lazy teen, griping about doing a few household chores. I think you are inflating the "angry" part. Yeah, the dad was pissed when he made the video. But do you think he really would deprive his daughter of a basic school need, a laptop, for 3 years? The quality schools I know REQUIRE students to bring a notebook computer to class. He can't practically follow through with that statement even if he wanted to. And he would be wrong NOT to give her a computer AFTER she acknowledges and apologizes for her attitude and behavior and accepts whatever further punishment he deems appropriate.

And I would correct your parenting advice...kids learn best by punishment AND positive reinforcement, not just one or the other. Punishment is part of the real world. To NOT correct your child's wrong attitudes or behavior is bad parenting. Period.

Dad's expectations are: sweep the kitchen floor, wipe off the counter top, empty the dishwasher, make your bed.

But Hannah calls it "slavery." Well, if Hannah calls it slavery then it must be slavery. We better affirm her feelings, wouldn't want to diminish her self-esteem, you know. Shhh....lower your voice, you'll disturb her MTV show she watching on the flatscreen in her room.

So if those values are acceptable at 15, then how about when she's 32 with a family of her own? Dirty floors, a dirty kitchen, unmade beds and an aversion to house work is preferable to maintaining a clean home? I don't think so. Hannah's parents are simply trying to teach her to how live responsibly.

I would side with the dad any day of the week. He instinctively knows best how to communicate with his own daughter. And using humiliation as a tactic?, absolutely, if that is what will be effective.

This is where your atheist world and my Christian worlds split. Where you see harshness, I see love. Proverbs 27:5 says, "Better is open rebuke than love that is concealed." And there are many other scriptures that I could mention as well.

Sometimes the right and loving thing to do is to publically humiliate a loved one who refuses to listen or acknowledge the wrong path he is going down. Now, probably, King Solomon, never imagined a .45 and a YouTube video but it works.

Modern society may count it as an affront to embarrass a loved one. But to NOT call out wrong or dangerous behavior is not true love in God’s eyes. Remaining silent is NOT love. If someone truly loves someone else then he will take action, even extreme action if necessary, if it will help them see the error of his ways and lead them to make a positive change.

You better believe that there will be a ton of family and hometown friends at Whitney Houston’s funeral this weekend who will be questioning themselves if there was more that they should have done to get her off drugs. Most, no doubt, got caught up in the hype and celebrity and truly did not care for her as a person and they will have regrets now.

Would they have risked their relationship with a drug-dependent Whitney if they had confronted her? Yeah, no doubt, but this weekend they will reflect upon the possible high price of their silence. But for the people who truly loved her and had the courage to risk their relationship by confronting her, they will have the satisfaction of knowing that they tried and did what was the right, responsible, and loving thing to do.

Confronting drug addiction is a little more serious than teaching someone to sweep the floor and respect her parents but the principal is the same - the motivation for intervention is love. That’s why I think Hannah’s fortunate to have the parents that she does.

[MJZiggy]

What bullshit, Kiwon. Why must you always assume that when we disagree it's because athiests (which I'm not by the way) are evil. Yet what if I don't think your proverb is correct just because it was written in a certain book. You may see this as love, but I've lived that kind of love and can tell you that it took decades to repair the relationship and my father never came close to the "love" that this fool exhibited. So which do you value more? Your child's obedience or your child's love? And it's not about coddling or refusing to acknowledge a wrong. There is a difference between correcting wrong and humiliating your child. I don't think you get the distinction. If my kid cleans up after dinner without being told to he gets praised. If he doesn't listen when I ask, he loses computer time. I don't need to go on Facebook and humiliate him. The horrid result of my bad parenting is a teenager who is younger, yet more mature than the one in this example, gets good grades and doesn't need his computer shot. As a matter of fact, he's got one more semester of straight As to go before he earns a new laptop with better gaming features. No reason to think he will not do it as he did it last year. He is an athiest who understands fully that respect is earned and that you can't beat or humiliate someone into giving it to you. I know plenty of "good" Christians who don't begin to understand that message, so please don't try to argue that religious people are somehow better. They just have "being forgiven" as an excuse for when they don't behave well. My athiest son respects me and he knows that I respect and love him. And he knows that he is the one responsible for his behavior, not god.

By the way, I don't think publicly humiliating Whitney Houston would have helped much. She publicly humiliated herself plenty and it didn't seem to have any effect. Yet society seems to reward that, don't they? They want to put flags at half mast for a drug addict who at one time could sing well and the black community wails for a woman who used to be booed for not being "black enough." Go figure.

[Scott Campbell]

I don't see humiliating your child as a huge act of mature love.

Look at how many times we've humiliated Harlan, and to no avail. I'm beginning to think that boy is just a bad seed.

[MJZiggy]

Look at how many times we've humiliated Harlan, and to no avail. I'm beginning to think that boy is just a bad seed.

Perfect example. Maybe we should have used positive reinforcement...

[Kiwon]

What bullshit, Kiwon. Why must you always assume that when we disagree it's because athiests (which I'm not by the way) are evil. Yet what if I don't think your proverb is correct just because it was written in a certain book. You may see this as love, but I've lived that kind of love and can tell you that it took decades to repair the relationship and my father never came close to the "love" that this fool exhibited. So which do you value more? Your child's obedience or your child's love?

Kiwon don't do Body Shots. And when you're wrong, you're just wrong. I can separate your evilness from your agnosticism. Lighten up..

I'm sorry you and your father had a tough relationship. However, that doesn't invalidate the principal of Proverbs 27:5 in the least. In fact, it's too bad that your dad apparently wasn't aware of Proverbs 22:6 ("Train up a child in the way he should go, Even when he is old he will not depart from it.") because at it's core the "training" starts with accepting the child as he or she is, not trying to dramatically change him. The image is like working with a young branch that is naturally bent in one direction. The goal is not to suddenly snap it back in the other direction. The goal is to shape it as it naturally grows.

The point I was making, MJZ, is that applying biblical teaching to relationships work. And, at certain times, that may even include public humiliation of a loved one if need be. Even secular psychologists recognize "Intervention" as a tool. But, surprise, surprise, King Solomon suggested it first.

And why do you draw a false dichotomy between obedience and love? A loved and secure child will naturally obey his parents. And he will also respect them as well, especially when he learns that the 10 Commandments includes "Honor your father and mother." It's not a forced loyalty, it's a natural response of love and devotion to God and to his parents.

But a love of others begins with a love for God first (“Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” And He said to him, “ ‘YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.’ “This is the great and foremost commandment. “The second is like it, ‘YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.’ “On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.” - Matthew 22:36-40).

Maybe these are just words to you, but they are words to live by for me. They represent God's truth and are an invaluable resource for all relationships. I understand that you believe a secular home is equal or superior to a Christian one. I simply can't agree. A family that has Christ as its center are the most loving and stable familes there are. In good times and bad, they not only survive, they thrive because God blesses those who love and obey Him. I've lived it and I've seen it over and over again.

[MJZiggy]

I'm glad that you admit that you're wrong. My dad was very aware of Proverbs 22:6. It is not true. How many people were "trained up" Catholic and now are athiest. I personally know of several. Your "training" does not accept a child for who he is, rather tries to turn the child into the religious person you want him to be--and it's not working. Since when is an eye for an eye a valid and correct teaching?

The difference in this case between obedience and love is not a false one. You can obey a father and then sit around at his funeral like my brothers did and have a talk about what a lousy father he was. And vow to yourself to raise your child better. My father raised his children that way because he didn't know better. Now we do and all of our children save one came out more confident and successful than we were. Each and every one of my brothers was raised Catholic and we had the 10 Commandments drilled into our heads. We obeyed. It was forced obedience. I'm sorry your biblical logic doesn't work with me. You'll have to come up with something better. You don't seem like you've ever had a crisis of faith. Congratulations for you, but for those who have, realize that you can live a perfectly happy and non-evil (I might add non-judgmental, thanks for judging me when you don't even know me) life with a stable family.

[Joemailman]

And why do you draw a false dichotomy between obedience and love? A loved and secure child will naturally obey his parents. And he will also respect them as well, especially when he learns that the 10 Commandments includes "Honor your father and mother." It's not a forced loyalty, it's a natural response of love and devotion to God and to his parents.

Getting back to the original subject a bit... Doesn't your statement above suggest the possibility that the girl has not been loved by her parents? If she had been loved, would she not, in your words, naturally obey her parents? Instead of being so disrespectful? When I saw that video, I did not see the love of a parent. I saw the father getting even as part of a vicious circle that I suspect has been going back and forth for a while. Revenge is not love. St. Paul told us what love looks and feels like:

Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

[Upnorth]

Building of this argument, I think teaching those we care about that actions lead to results is very important. Here is a prime example. The action was being a sucky baby about having chores. The result was loss of privilege. If this was the first incident the dad went way overboard, however we know it wasn't. Did he over escalate? Perhaps as we don't know all the steps leading to this result. In the end a self entitled child found out actions have consequences. I am grateful this happened in the home and not at a job or in the courts.

[Joemailman]

We should also keep in mind we've only heard one side of the story.

[Zool]

I guess Deuteronomy 22:13-21 pretty much says it all for me.

[gbgary]

I guess Deuteronomy 22:13-21...

my doctor wants me undergo one of those procedures by i'm holding off as long as i can.

[GrnBay007]

I don't condone violence in any way. I think I posted somewhere in this thread, "until you walk in someone shoes" But man o man even some really good kids can push you to the edge. There are certain times during the teen years they are just not even like themselves and those lines have to be drawn all the more firmer in the sand. I keep reminding myself the raging hormones and all that crap is what is causing them to act like..........................I don't want to say it!

Just had to add that since it's been a rough night with the 16 yr. old. lol

[MJZiggy]

I don't condone violence in any way. I think I posted somewhere in this thread, "until you walk in someone shoes" But man o man even some really good kids can push you to the edge. There are certain times during the teen years they are just not even like themselves and those lines have to be drawn all the more firmer in the sand. I keep reminding myself the raging hormones and all that crap is what is causing them to act like..........................I don't want to say it!

Just had to add that since it's been a rough night with the 16 yr. old. lol

Did you shoot her computer?

[mraynrand]

Getting back to the original subject a bit... Doesn't your statement above suggest the possibility that the girl has not been loved by her parents? If she had been loved, would she not, in your words, naturally obey her parents? Instead of being so disrespectful? When I saw that video, I did not see the love of a parent. I saw the father getting even as part of a vicious circle that I suspect has been going back and forth for a while. Revenge is not love. St. Paul told us what love looks and feels like:

Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

Ah yes, but there is a distinction between filial and agape love. Sometimes filial love will not look like agape, especially when you have to stand a kid in the corner, or spank a kid for rotten behaviour.

I'd throw out a couple of Proverbs that apply, but I left my "Rick Santorum Old Testament Reader" at home.