VICK DA GREAT

[Waldo]

I think that you big time overestimate "the circus".

Brett Favre is the traveling circus. Once reinstated, you might see it a little bit in preseason. It might actually be helpful to have an actual suspension then of a few games. By the time he gets back, and suited up on the sidelines, it is old news and not a big deal as long as he stays relatively quiet.

There was no circus and very little negative backlash over Koren Robinson.

The one team thought to be courting Vick moreso than any other is actually the New England Patriots, for the same reason. He is a valuable x factor weapon, a valuable backup QB, and would come very cheap relative to his ability. Bill B. has never been concerned with "the circus". And he's been studying the spread and its derivatives (which the Wildcat is) with Meyer for the last 2 offseasons.

Imagine Vick in the backfield with Maroney, behind Brady, with Moss and Welker outside and Watson at TE. 16-0 yet again. Because nobody else had the nuts to give Vick a chance.

[SkinBasket]

I think that you big time overestimate "the circus".

Brett Favre is the traveling circus. Once reinstated, you might see it a little bit in preseason. It might actually be helpful to have an actual suspension then of a few games. By the time he gets back, and suited up on the sidelines, it is old news and not a big deal as long as he stays relatively quiet.

There was no circus and very little negative backlash over Koren Robinson.

The one team thought to be courting Vick moreso than any other is actually the New England Patriots, for the same reason. He is a valuable x factor weapon, a valuable backup QB, and would come very cheap relative to his ability. Bill B. has never been concerned with "the circus". And he's been studying the spread and its derivatives (which the Wildcat is) with Meyer for the last 2 offseasons.

Imagine Vick in the backfield with Maroney, behind Brady, with Moss and Welker outside and Watson at TE. 16-0 yet again. Because nobody else had the nuts to give Vick a chance.

No one else may want to deal with the signs and chants directed at Vick in their home stadium. No one else may want their brand and logo associated with murdering dogs. No one else may want PETA protesting outside the stadium every week. No one else may want their players, coaches, and administration answering questions every week about Vick and the continued attention he will bring to any team he signs on with.

Brett Favre's circus was worn out before the season even started and it appeared the Jets were worn out with what was left of it at the conclusion of last season. Koren Robinson was guilty of something that, like it or not, a lot of people, especially in Wisconsin, are familiar with and can "relate to."

You've seen it everywhere from these boards to the national media: People are not going to let this go. You can argue that isn't fair compared to other players, but it's undeniable that the feelings that Vick's crime instills in people has failed to diminish over the time he's spent in prison.

[Waldo]

It has been opined several times that Mike Vick is Peta's biggest blessing and its biggest curse.

At first Vick was a blessing. It brought a hotbutton topic to the fore, and attracted more supporters to their cause, in manpower and money.

But, their success, and object of hate, will be their undoing. They will BIG TIME overstep their welcome when it comes to protesting, and embarrass themselves into oblivion in the press.

Protesting doesn't work unless it is short but powerful.

Half the stadium protests for one game.....there is a problem.

Peta shows up at games with 500 people every darn week. By week 4 annoyed drunk tailgaters are throwing beer at them, and it has zero effect on the game being played inside the stadium. The lunatic fringe of their group is exposed to the mainstream by the press. Peta's own success becomes its undoing. Its spotlight and reason to protest, they go too far, and a negative public reaction ensues.

[Lurker64]

Certainly, the Packers would be a reasonable landing spot for Vick since the team is going to have no problem selling out games no matter how many protestors there are.

The question I have, is that if Thompson were to sign Vick this year, whose roster spot does he take? Flynn, Brohm, Lumpkin, Wynn, Ruvell?

[Waldo]

Certainly, the Packers would be a reasonable landing spot for Vick since the team is going to have no problem selling out games no matter how many protestors there are.

The question I have, is that if Thompson were to sign Vick this year, whose roster spot does he take? Flynn, Brohm, Lumpkin, Wynn, Ruvell?

#3 TE or #2 FB IMO, luxury positions IMO.

Which is what a wildcat QB is.

I think year 1, Vick is a wildcat QB for whoever takes him, and he only gets a 1 or 2 year deal (2 year would be ideal IMO because of the tradability if he plays well). He is Pat White x10. If the Wildcat is a fad, the short contract protects the team.

I just hope that he doesn't fall into the Pats hands. Seriously. Anybody else.

[pbmax]

Re: Justice

IF there was any justice on this earth, anyone participating in dog fighting in any way shape or form, should be thrown into a cage with a lion or tiger and see what it feels like to be torn apart.

I hope Michael Vick dies a horrible death at some point in time.........

I understand your feelings about dogs, I really do. But ..... the being "torn apart" type of death is fairly natural in the animal world. Isn't that the exact way that most carnivorous animals feed themselves? That's what makes this activity so controversial. The participants argue that the dog fight is no different than what happens in the animal world constantly, one killing another in a vicious manner. In my mind what sets it apart is that humans do it for entertainment. But we have a long history of being entertained by the suffering of both animals and other humans.

The participant's argument might be compelling if it wasn't humans arranging the fights, but the dogs instead. No consent or choice exists to the animal when it exists in these circumstances.

In the wild, the fight over food, territory or mates is determined by the two competitors, no one else normally intervenes. And unless its being filmed by National Geographic, there is no betting.

I'd be surprised if Vick even looks at the Packers under the scenario laid out earlier. Mainly because he will be looking for a one year, incentive laden prove it deal. He might have to take two years if there isn't a clear shot at starting. But what Vick will want is the chance to have a good season, followed by a big time starter sized contract. He would not get that as a Wildcat QB in Green Bay.

[th87]

Re: Justice

IF there was any justice on this earth, anyone participating in dog fighting in any way shape or form, should be thrown into a cage with a lion or tiger and see what it feels like to be torn apart.

I hope Michael Vick dies a horrible death at some point in time.........

I understand your feelings about dogs, I really do. But ..... the being "torn apart" type of death is fairly natural in the animal world. Isn't that the exact way that most carnivorous animals feed themselves? That's what makes this activity so controversial. The participants argue that the dog fight is no different than what happens in the animal world constantly, one killing another in a vicious manner. In my mind what sets it apart is that humans do it for entertainment. But we have a long history of being entertained by the suffering of both animals and other humans.

The participant's argument might be compelling if it wasn't humans arranging the fights, but the dogs instead. No consent or choice exists to the animal when it exists in these circumstances.

In the wild, the fight over food, territory or mates is determined by the two competitors, no one else normally intervenes. And unless its being filmed by National Geographic, there is no betting.

I'd be surprised if Vick even looks at the Packers under the scenario laid out earlier. Mainly because he will be looking for a one year, incentive laden prove it deal. He might have to take two years if there isn't a clear shot at starting. But what Vick will want is the chance to have a good season, followed by a big time starter sized contract. He would not get that as a Wildcat QB in Green Bay.

But what would dogs consent to?

Dogs also do not consent to losing their genitals, and becoming someone's pet. It might look really nice and make us feel good that we're taking a dog into our family, but this involves changing a dog's will as well. Are we really doing it for their benefit? Or ours?

How can we be so sure that we're doing dogs such huge favors by taking them in (not counting situations where dogs were abused or abandoned, and the owner is picking them up from the shelter). Maybe they were meant to be wild, fighting, and running around freely. Maybe we're roping them into something akin to a dull marriage - stable, but not preferred.

Of course, again, this does not equate the two situations. One results in dying, and another results in living pretty well. But both situations upset the natural instinct of the dog.

So to which extreme would dogs gravitate if they had their own choices? I don't know.

[th87]

The last post also underscores the fact that we as humans use animals to our own ends all the time, good or bad.

Rats are bred and pumped with all kinds of diseases to test certain drugs. They suffer through cancer and the rest of our worst ailments. Then they are discarded when their purpose is met.

These rats are used purely for our benefit. There is no consideration whatsoever of the well-being and lives of the rats. Therefore, we use the rats to benefit our own lives.

Vick and co. used and abused dogs purely for their own benefit, without consideration of their well-being and lives. They benefited their own lives by partaking in recreation and making money.

So of course, it is good to save human lives at the expense of a rat's. And it is bad to gamble at the expense of a dog.

But would we be outraged if dogs were used to conduct lab experiments? I would guess yes. And would we be outraged if Vick ran a rat-fighting ring? I highly doubt it.

So this would seem to suggest that we have an arbitrary cultural bias towards dogs. This is ONLY because Americans (primarily) consider dogs as their friends. And because Vick grew up in a culture that doesn't consider dogs as their friends, he saw them as disposable as we do the lab rats (or the rat-fighters in the hypothetical example).

This does not make Vick evil. It makes him a person who was conditioned differently from the rest of us. And I think he's learned his lesson.

[th87]

Gunakor, as far as Vick goes, what debt does he have yet to pay to society?

Prove that he's done dogfighting, talk to and work with organizations to stop others who are engaged in dogfighting, work with animal rights groups, etc.

Let me ask you this: What debt has Vick paid to society simply by spending time behind bars? How does one make things right in the eyes of society while incarcerated? What has Vick done specifically? I would think that those of us who have NOT spent time behind bars have paid more towards society than anyone who has. I give no credit to a criminal simply for serving his punishment.

There are far more pressing issues on this planet than curbing dog-fighting. I would prefer that he devote his time to educating the youth or feeding the hungry.

Technically, Vick incurred a debt to the justice system that he subsequently paid. The justice system represents our society, and is the entity that exacts payback for society when society has been wronged.

You can say that by serving his sentence, he now has a society-account balance of 0.00. If it goes negative, he's back in jail, and if it goes positive, he'll stay free.

So outside of this accounting system, he owes me nothing. I'm not emotionally invested in his career. I have no problem with him playing football even if he doesn't repent - I just won't like him. And if that does occur, the system will correct itself. He'll lose money for his franchise and will be dismissed.

But if he shows repentance and wanting to do right after his reinstatement, I'd have great respect for him. I'm okay with him taking those steps even after he starts playing again, because right now, I'm assuming that he's changed after his humbling experience, and am willing to give him a chance to see if he did.

[th87]

If God didn't want us to eat cows, then why are they made out of all that good meat?

So true!

[mraynrand]

Re: Justice

So to which extreme would dogs gravitate if they had their own choices? I don't know.

They would want to sniff other dog's rear ends.

[mraynrand]

Rats are bred and pumped with all kinds of diseases to test certain drugs. They suffer through cancer and the rest of our worst ailments. Then they are discarded when their purpose is met.

This sort of reminds me reminds me of Cleft Crusty. But really, do rats 'suffer?'

[mraynrand]

There is no consideration whatsoever of the well-being and lives of the rats.

You should see the write up an IRB (institutional review board) on animal research. Research rats are treated better than geezers in a nursing home (well, except for the actual experiment and the sacrificing, but you get the point).

[ThunderDan]

I think the big issue with dogfighting and animal cruelty in general is that it usually is the doorway to lifetime/hard criminals.

While it doesn't happen in every case, a large majority of the prison population at one time or another purposely hurt animals. (I am not talking about hunting, medical research or food production) Research suggests that if you can disregard the damage to the animal it is easier to disassociate with the damage done to humans.

[pbmax]

Re: Justice

But what would dogs consent to?

Dogs also do not consent to losing their genitals, and becoming someone's pet. It might look really nice and make us feel good that we're taking a dog into our family, but this involves changing a dog's will as well. Are we really doing it for their benefit? Or ours?

I doubt the dogs would choose to die by electrocution or losing their genitals. But because we find one option necessary doesn't mean the other must be permitted. Because humans find uses for domesticated animals doesn't permit any treatment.

No animal chooses to be domesticated. Which means we assume some responsibility for their well being. Somehow, I can't see how dog fighting contributes to the well being of dogs. And unlike spaying or neutering, it is not necessary to keep a healthy population level.